Grand Master & Religious Beliefs

[Cydone]

I have a concern that I want to share with you. 10 years ago I started practicing Hapkido, which branch for its own integrity, I wont disclose here, and it is also besides the point. A Few years later I stopped, I had to go away for a year, back home and in the following years, I tried different forms, but never again found what I was realy looking for. Back then when I was 16 years old, the depth and philosophy of the form intrigued me, and has given me value, and changed me somewhat into what I am today.

I have been thinking countless times about starting again, but never came around to it, until last month. I started in a shcool with the exact same form, under the same Grand Master, in my new city.

It is and has been great getting back and moving around, dancing with the soul.. But this very weekend, I once again, as I had 10 years ago, had the fortununity of training with the Grand Master at a weekend training session. As most of us know, training with your Grand Master comes next to nothing, it is indeed unique, regardless of what it is you practice.

But there, 10 years after, hearing him talk, listening to him expressing himself about the depth of this form, he did ofcasue have the same philophical aproach, however, and here it come my friends, my problem; he started including God in between his tellings. I dont want this to turn into a religious discussion. Of cause, many things we learn from the deeper/softer martial arts, do include similar moral concerns as many religions, but still. One does not have to be religious, to believe that it is "good" or at least feels good to treat other people with respect, and be nice, to give more than to take etc. They may be religious dogmas, but I do not have to believe in a god, to refrain from stealing or killing.

My point here is, my Grand Master has become more and perhaps more religious in time, and is now throwing in bits and pieces of his own religious beliefs.

Even when we mediated, he would start by thanking for us being together and thanking (not god or anything, just thanking) for us still being able to walk etc. And then to bring out this meditative energy to the city, country and the world.

This is all good, peace and love, hey its all good mate. But understand me now, this guy is saying things like "we are the signature of God", and "God created the universe".

When we meditated it felt more like praying, and he also said that he would pray for us. That is too much for me. I am so sad, what seemed like a natural aproach, a philophy of life, seems now more and more like the teachings of the bible. Although he said, that heart, god, self, is all the same, it was still like we were responsible to god, and he would throw in stories from the bible.

My question or concern is, how much does it mean for the art, that the Grand Master of the system is religious, and more or less has come to look like another Jesus figure?

I love the art, the form, but there are no schools near me that has another branch of the form. So I will have to change to a new system, which I have had so hard finding. Nothing realy comes close enough, and I also love the philosphy, the meditation and all the depth.

I say to myself, you practice a baseform which has many branches, the form itself does not differ from the the other branches, the techniques etc are all the same.

But my branch, seems to have become alittle more religious than I would like.

Does any of you have some of the same concers? How do you accept it? Do you just say "I love the form, I dont care where it came from, and what the Grand Master believes" ?

I will continue practising for a bit, till I have settled this with myself, in the meantime, try to look for something else. But then again, I will probably just find that the Grand Master of another system, has other beliefs, or that the hole system is based on lies, that will take you another 10 years to decipher.

What to do?

 

[chinto01]

Very interesting topic. It is almost like the seperation of church and state topic that goes on in government today. I believe that religion should not be imposed on anyone in the martial arts. I have recently stayed on Okinawa with my grandmaster for close to 3 weeks and not once was religion ever pushed on me. We asked him about his beliefs but he never preached to us about it or forced us to do anything. Have you talked to your sensei about this and if so what has he had to say? Just because the grandmaster is a religious person does not mean that you have to be. Unfortunately you are in a position that if you continue to feel uncomfortable you may need to find a new dojo.

 

[Cydone]

I have talked with people at my dojang. Some have problems with what "happened" this weekend, but most just say, "you shouldnt lay too much thought into it, he has always been a religious man, be it Budhism or Christianity" The Master himself also said, that he knew most of the time he was being misunderstood, and when he held out his finger, we all looked at the ceiling, instead of at the finger, as an examble.

My trainer said that I shoulndt think about it too much, and that the master didnt mean god as an entity, but rather god as heart and oneself.

But he did talk about creation, and he did devide heart and God and that we are responsible to those two. Again, I could have misunderstood alot, since things were translated.

However, I dont like feeling as if im at some cultish religious gathering. There is a reason I felt that this weekend.

Im on the verge of just going back to train Muay Thai, which I trained before, there is no ******** there. I want to train, and I want to train hard, with no religious philosophies behind.

When I think like this, most of what I have trained becomes silly, down to the very dobok/gi we are wearing and the color of our belts. Most of what I have learned in Hapkido, I wont be able to use on the street. On the other Hand, what I learn in Muay Thai, I will never use, since I will never be in a position where I need to use it..

that was a sidetrack, just expressing that my mind is running 110mph right now

I liked to think that I was training, not ever to use it, as I knew I probably coulndt, but to become one with myself, however you want to interpret that.

The other closest thing that we have here is Hwarangdo, and.. no way.

I will go to training tonight, and talk with people there, Im sure I will make up my mind soon.

 

[GAB]

Hi Cydone,

Talk to your GM about it very honestly and openly. Follow your feelings and try and convey them with respect...

You are paying for a product. Remember that...

He honest, to yourself and to others...

Regards, Gary

 

[chinto01]

Cydone,

Sounds like this is really getting to you and I do not blame you. I think it is a good idea to talk with the others at your dojo. See what they think about it. How often does the grandmaster come to train with you? Be patient and think out your solutions as confronting the grandmaster may cause a problem. I would ask some questions of him if he allows. Do not give up hope yet.

 

[Cydone]

It has been 4 years since last time he was in the country.

I feel the branch of hapkido im practising has become alot more soft than what I realy want.

Its only possible to train 2 days a week, and when I asked about having our own dojang, to be able to train all week, the reply was "I dont think there is anyone in any of the schools that has ambitions in this way." that realy put me off.

I have to figure something out, I realy want to get going with MA.

 

[TigerWoman]

Like what GAB said, I would talk with your GM about it, openingly but respectfully and tell him how you feel. The direct way is always the best.

Like you, I have a master, 5th dan, TKD, who has become increasing Christian influencing in our school. At first you could hardly tell, then he seemed to be interviewing people where they went to church. Then he had parties where his principle focus was in a bible study question game instead of fellowship as it was a Christmas party in January. Which by then, I am out of the mood, besides it hardly like one, no decorations, we bring the food to the dojang. He preaches by way of the game. I stopped going as well as my family. Besides all this, he made comments that no black belts would be passed unless they were Christian.

Then, in class, he started asking questions about faith and the bible. Since somehow who was left was Christian or borderline he kept doing this during exercise or stretching. I refused to get into a discussion about bible teaching, etc. I'm a Christian but I can't say that I go to church every Sunday, read the bible seldomly, etc. but I do pray more now and believe in God and that his existence was proven to me lately but we won't get into that - that is in the "higher power" thread in the study if you are interested. But still I don't tolerate him teaching in class where I am supposed to be studying something else.

A few months ago, I learned from a mother who had children in class, that he commented that he would only have Christian teachers in his school. Since for another reason, our relations was strained and he wasn't letting me teach. I was just appalled at that statement. The master didn't also know that the father were Jewish and he had just lost a student and possibly the children later as well. As if he expected his teachers to either teach athiesm and be a bad influence or Christian beliefs and be a good influence-I believe neither are necessarily good or bad. We already teach the tenets of Taekwondo, courtesy, integrity, self-control, indomitable spirt, and perseverance besides other "key"s respect, repetition, patience, discipliine and humility.

But apparently something got to him and he has changed, stopped preaching so much. His brochure now says that it is for all people of any faith or no faith, and no proseletizing or trying to convert will be done. But also, that he, the master, is open to any questions about being a Christian after class.

So, depending on what your GM values more, as some do, his own special group of Christians or does he want to attract others and grow his organization? So I think the direct way, a discussion with him is the best way. TW

 

[Cydone]

To do my GM justice, I should note here that all this about God, was not during our training sessions. This was afterwords, when he held a speech or what you want to call it, about the form, and the philosophy behind, how we should live our lifes and all. Most very good and true to the system, and Hapkido as well. It was in this speech though, that came bits and pieces of God. Stories from the bible as stories from Buddhism was also refered to.

All in all not that bad. It was only at some points, he would go on and say how beautiful the human being is, more valuable than the most valuable diamond, and then he would throw in the metaphor that we were the signature of god. Gods creations.

That did it for me, but only that.

 

[Andrew Green]

It's kind of a funny thing. But somewhere a long the line many martial arts instructors decided that it was there responsibility to play the spiritual leader role as well.

Kinda like if you went to church and where forced to spar before you could take communion...

Another question though, if he where bringing Buhhdist beliefs into the gym would you object? or would that be a "bonus"?

A martial arts teacher trying to impose religion is a complete misuse of authority.

I'm just going to guess that you are expected to bow to him and call him by a fancy title as well? Junior ranks are possibly not "supposed" to ask questions? Unquestioning obedience is standard?

It is a downward spiral. Instructors put themselves above there students and just keep elevating themselves higher and higher, best bet is to find a instructor that hasn't drifted as far from reality yet

 

[CMack11]

"Junior ranks are possibly not "supposed" to ask questions?"

That's when I stop trusting a school right there. Any time you aren't supposed to ask questions it gets a little iffy for me.

 

[TigerWoman]

Cydone, why does that bother you so much? Without getting into a religious discussion, it seems that it doesn't interfere with your training nearly as much as it has for me and I persisted in my art. I don't know your rank, but much of getting to black belt is getting through and over mountains of adversity-stuff in your way. Don't let something like this bother you. You weren't forced to sit and listen after class. But what he was saying was that the human body, mind and spirit are a marvel and not just of science. There is much about the body that we do not know and have yet to find out. I also believe God created us and the world. If your GM is a Christian, it is his duty to spread the word of God, understand his commitment. I understand my master's felt need to talk to others about God. It is part of your GM and cannot be left out of his psyche. It is part of him. Once you have faith, truly, you would understand but that aside, try to have some tolerance for his beliefs. Just as you would a Muslim, a Jew or an Athiest. Take what you will from his talk if you decide to stay and listen to him. Actually I got a lot of good from mine at first but that's another story. I try to have an open mind and listen for good, discard the bad. It sounds like your GM is a good man, talk with him, he will not judge you. TW

 

[Andrew Green]

Would you put up with that from a piano teacher?

 

[Cydone]

Maybe there is more I dont like than just the topic. Maybe that is why this is bothering me so much.

As I stated inbetween somewhere, I dont feel these guys are very serious. When we train, yes its good and tough, but that is only 2 times a week, I cant accomplish anything 2 days a week, so I train at home. But what if I could find likeminded that trained 4-7 days a week?

Maybe I should just go join a Kickboxing school, at least they are serious, and wont talk to me about religion and god. Just there to train and balance out the physical with the psyche.

I bothers me a great deal, wether I know why or not. I can chose to ignore, and just take what I like, or I can chose to go to another system, where I dont have to ignore things to like it.

 

[Andrew Green]

Of course it bothers you...

Giving money to someone for instruction, expecting professional behaviour, and getting someone that decides he needs to "enliughten" you about spirituality.

If this where in a academic environment would you put up with it?

Your math teacher decides to turn class into a preaching session?

The administration sure wouldn't be impressed....

 

[TigerWoman]

Well, for me martial arts is a mental and physical discipline. I practice traditional Taekwondo but in an interesting manner. Right now, I could go to ten classes if I wanted. Three classes Mon, 1 Tues., 2 Wed., 2 Thurs., 2 Fri. but my master teaches in four other towns also, once a week at least. Then the other BB teach the other day so at least they have two days. I agree two days is not enough, but when that is all a teacher wants to commit, it is better than nothing.

Is there no other BB's that can teach other days? I would also hate it if I just had two days. I probably would teach kickboxing because if you aren't a BB in TKD, you can't teach, but I taught as a red belt, kickboxing for three years. It got me in great condition and I practiced my stuff prior to the workout (3x week additional then).

Are there any other schools in your area?
TW

 

[Cydone]

Yes, there are other schools that I could attend to, and perhaps get 3-4 days training.

The old problem remains though.

While I got your attention, how was kickboxing?

 

[Ceicei]

Andrew,

My impression from this is that the "god discussion" came AFTER class, not during training. Whether Cyclone is obligated to stay, I don't know. I can imagine, however, that a chance to meet the GM is an opportunity in itself. Apparently, his expection of an after class discussion does not include religion.

Perhaps it is one way for the GM to let others know more about himself, of what makes him tick. If the GM only comes, say once every 4 years (Cyclone mentioned the last time he came was 4 yrs ago), is it worth someth to put up for a few days during the time the GM is visiting if his regular training during the rest of the time/years is otherwise fine and generally religion-free?

I guess it just comes down to what is tolerable and what is not, as well as how long is the GM staying, as well as how his instructor handles it.

If it is intolerable and more long term, then finding another dojo may be a better option.

- Ceicei

 

[Ceicei]

Cydone,
My apologies for mispelling your username in my earlier post.

- Ceicei

 

[TigerWoman]

Cydrone,
We mostly used the Wavemaster standup bags, kickboxing music, techno, latin, that is sold for that purpose. It became a killer class, especially when my master came in and taught/led occasionally. Mostly hitting the bag, punches, kicks, double jumps. We didn't spar if that was what you were thinking. But I think I wore out my class as I had alot more conditioning and led it. I took a community ed kickboxing class to see what they were doing and found out it was taught all wrong. They didn't know what the kicks were or even what an uppercut looked like. But it was a much easier class so most of the people were going to that.
I hope you find a solution that is workable. TW

 

[Andrew Green]

Andrew,

My impression from this is that the "god discussion" came AFTER class, not during training. Whether Cyclone is obligated to stay, I don't know. I can imagine, however, that a chance to meet the GM is an opportunity in itself. Apparently, his expection of an after class discussion does not include religion.

I got the impression they trained, lined up, and got lectured.

If it was at the bar afterwards then yeah, whatever... but thats not the impression I got.