What is a "Grand Master" really?

[Bob Hubbard]

Snagged this from another board...

The "Grand Master" title. What does it mean? What are the
responsibilties and duties of a GM? What should be expected of a GM?

My opening reply:

Good question.

I'll take a stab at it.


Chess has grandmasters, defined thusly "Conferred by FIDE, it is the
highest title (aside from World Champion) that one can achieve. It is
awarded to players who meet established performance standards. Other
titles (in order of importance) are International Master and FIDE
Master. Once earned, these titles cannot be taken away." and "a player
of exceptional or world class skill in chess or bridge"

So, lets pare this down a bit.

Highest Title
Meet established performance standards
Cannot be taken away
a player of exceptional or world class skill

I would add the following:
Head of a martial arts organization and/or founder of a style/art.
Individual who sets and establishes standards for the style/art
Individual who develops / forms / perfects the art/style


In Modern Arnis terms, Remy Presas was the founding GM because he pulled
the components together that became Modern Arnis.
He was the 'stick' against all others were measured.
He set the standards and decided who was where in the pecking order.




Hows that for a start?

 

[Kacey]

It's a great start... I'm going to have think about it before I say anything else. Hmmm....

 

[Steel Tiger]

Snagged this from another board...


My opening reply:

Good question.

I'll take a stab at it.


Chess has grandmasters, defined thusly "Conferred by FIDE, it is the
highest title (aside from World Champion) that one can achieve. It is
awarded to players who meet established performance standards. Other
titles (in order of importance) are International Master and FIDE
Master. Once earned, these titles cannot be taken away." and "a player
of exceptional or world class skill in chess or bridge"

So, lets pare this down a bit.

Highest Title
Meet established performance standards
Cannot be taken away
a player of exceptional or world class skill

I would add the following:
Head of a martial arts organization and/or founder of a style/art.
Individual who sets and establishes standards for the style/art
Individual who develops / forms / perfects the art/style


In Modern Arnis terms, Remy Presas was the founding GM because he pulled
the components together that became Modern Arnis.
He was the 'stick' against all others were measured.
He set the standards and decided who was where in the pecking order.




Hows that for a start?

I think this is an excellent start.

The title Grand Master appears to have originated with the holy fighting orders that developed in the twelfth century. Such a person was the head of the Order, not just one chapter, but the whole Order.

I would like to think that in the MAs it has the same meaning and importance but it doesn't. Now it is merely a title in a long list of titles. It no longer even represents the pinacle of an art as it did with Remy Presas. Every man and his dog seems to be claiming to be a Grand Master. It has gotten so bad that Great Grand Masters have appeared, I suppose in an attempt to combat the diluting of the importantance of a Grand Master title.

In my own small organisation Grand Master is merely a title, the highest one can achieve, but still just a title. There are requirements for attaining this rank. From the handbook my teacher wrote,

"Grand Masters...A student can only become a Grand Master after serving an apprenticeship as a disciple - during which time they must spend at least one year as an ascetic and at least twenty-five years in the study of Kung Fu. Further, the student's own Master can no longer be living at the time of their succession to the yellow-gold sash."

You can see its not easy and it shouldn't be. I am disappointed with the ease with which many people become Grand Masters. It belittles the achievements of real Grand Masters.

 

[Nobody]

I have heard certain words used in reference to Japan an China that is used to describe those who have become the original creator or as you put it master. Once someone said that the Japanese was Gunshi/Waizufu are these still used or were they ever a used term in Japanese for the creator or master of systems.

What is the known title given to Chinese? I for get an never use them so that's why i don't know these titles.

Basically i am not sure but Soke means one that trained under the original creator is what i understood! So to summarize, What are the titles used in both Chinese and in Japanese for those that create or the original teacher?

Also once looked up a website that had this as a question why no one ever becomes this anymore. Again this is a question what have you all heard about the titles.

Japanese for master = tatsujin, shishou, kun, shukun, myoushu, teishu
Japanese for Grand = yuuen, doudou, gurando, gurande, soudai
Chinese for grand = Can not find a dictionary that give in pinyin
Chinese for master = Can not find a dictionary that give in pinyin
What i am saying that it seems we take these words an change them in english to mean the greatest!

 

[IWishToLearn]

It's a title used by a lot of people. Some deserve it, some don't. To each his/her own.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Soke Defined
http://www.martialtalk.net/wiki/index.php/Soke

 

[Steel Tiger]

I have heard certain words used in reference to Japan an China that is used to describe those who have become the original creator or as you put it master. Once someone said that the Japanese was Gunshi/Waizufu are these still used or were they ever a used term in Japanese for the creator or master of systems.

What is the known title given to Chinese? I for get an never use them so that's why i don't know these titles.

Basically i am not sure but Soke means one that trained under the original creator is what i understood! So to summarize, What are the titles used in both Chinese and in Japanese for those that create or the original teacher?

Also once looked up a website that had this as a question why no one ever becomes this anymore. Again this is a question what have you all heard about the titles.

Japanese for master = tatsujin, shishou, kun, shukun, myoushu, teishu
Japanese for Grand = yuuen, doudou, gurando, gurande, soudai
Chinese for grand = Can not find a dictionary that give in pinyin
Chinese for master = Can not find a dictionary that give in pinyin
What i am saying that it seems we take these words an change them in english to mean the greatest!

These are some Chinese terms I found which seem appropriate. There are others I know, but I cannot remember them.

Master = Shi Fu (I also think of this as teacher)
Master = Fu Shi (an old form used for teachers and scholars)
Great Master = Da Shi

There is also the term "Lao Shi" which means old snake and is often used for teachers. My teachers teacher is always called Chan Lao Shi.

 

[Nobody]

Yea that is exactly what i meant Bob Hubbard

Soke Defined
http://www.martialtalk.net/wiki/index.php/SokeToday 07:58 PM

There must be some law when you want to find something on the Internet right than you can not find it.

Master = Shi Fu (I also think of this as teacher)
Master = Fu Shi (an old form used for teachers and scholars)
Great Master = Da Shi

There is also the term "Lao Shi" which means old snake

Yea, the instructor i trained with for 12 some odd years would tell me these thing before i move you know an we just never consistently used the terms cause i was a very close relationship not just a class or it was a very family based thing.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Yea that is exactly what i meant Bob Hubbard

There must be some law when you want to find something on the Internet right than you can not find it.


Yea, the instructor i trained with for 12 some odd years would tell me these thing before i move you know an we just never consistently used the terms cause i was a very close relationship not just a class or it was a very family based thing.

I think it's by a guy named Murphy.

 

[10,000 Hit Combo]

Grand Master is a step above master. Two words instead of one.
I, personally don't believe it's possible to be a master well you are alive, let alone a grand master. To me, Bruce Lee became a master after they nailed his coffin shut. Technically, I've heard the twenty-five year thing as well but this is tradition being as some have more natural ability than others and would take longer or shorter times to "achieve" this. Maybe a reward for putting in a quarter century. Most grand masters are such because the name sounds good. Some are genuine. Once you can do push-ups with you breath I won't argue. There's also the grand-master eyebrows to consider. Buddha's name be praised!

 

[shesulsa]

The way I think it works for us:

Student Instructor (early black belts who are learning to instruct everyone)
Instructor (instructs student instructors and color ranks)
Master Instructor (instructs the instructors and everyone else below)
Grand Master (Instructs the Masters - may also be head of a chapter of the style, especially if there are more than one level of GM)
Supreme Grand Master (head of style and instructs the GMs)

 

[bluekey88]

As with many things in life, I feel titles are only useful in so far as they function within a given system. True, many folks (perhaps most) take titles such as ghrand master because hey sound cool and have a certain "cache" to the uninitiated. The problems really come when one tries to transfer these titles that sound the same but suually mean very different htings between organizations.

What I'm saying is that calling oneself something like Grandmaster is useful only in as much as it generally describes ones standing and perhaps ones accomplishments in a given system or organization. It does not hold true in relation to ANYTHING else. So, if one meets the criteria to be called a grandmaster in a given system, that's gfine by me. If that same person then tries to use that title to gain accolades or claim entitlements that they do not deserve..htat's wehere the problems start. Unfortunately, this is a phenomenon that is not unique to the martial arts...you see this all over the place.

Peace,
Erik

 

[Em MacIntosh]

Chuck Norris!

 

[Laurentkd]

We look at it a little differently than has been posted here.

I have a master (sahbonim) and he has a master... so his master is my grandmaster (kwanjangnim). Much like a father and a grandfather. My instructor still calls his instructor "Master Ko" but when he is talking about him he says "your grandmaster.." Again, like my father calls his father "dad", but tells me, "go talk to grandpa"
However, my instructor says he doesn't want to be called grandmaster until his master is dead, so I don't know what my future students will call him!

 

[Nobody]

I have always thought that the definition of the person that creates the style or school of study should have some title likened to Doctor. Cause like Bagua can be traced back to like Tung Hai-Ch'uan. Tung Hai-Ch'uan to me has did something that not just anyone can do, and has to do with the fact they spent this much time developing a set of ideas an methods that developed philosophy's that created a system of teaching and often its own method of thinking that does not stray from the natural reality of society an man. This takes a very long time to develop an often a style is not developed in one person's life time.

 

[Steel Tiger]

I have always thought that the definition of the person that creates the style or school of study should have some title likened to Doctor. Cause like Bagua can be traced back to like Tung Hai-Ch'uan. Tung Hai-Ch'uan to me has did something that not just anyone can do, and has to do with the fact they spent this much time developing a set of ideas an methods that developed philosophy's that created a system of teaching and often its own method of thinking that does not stray from the natural reality of society an man. This takes a very long time to develop an often a style is not developed in one person's life time.

This is very similar to the position that Remy Presas was in but the situation has changed and a Grand Master is something less nowadays it seems.

 

[Nobody]

This is very similar to the position that Remy Presas was in but the situation has changed and a Grand Master is something less nowadays it seems.

I agree an Steel on Remy Presas, even though i never studied his art.

I do think they have given to society. They meaning all the people that have did this in Martial Arts.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Martialpedia Entry
http://www.martialtalk.net/wiki/index.php/Grandmaster

The term Grandmaster in the martial arts world is the pinnacle title for some martial art styles. There are multiple meanings behind the term grandmaster depending on the lineage of the master, the style he or she practices and the method in which the grandmaster title is bestowed or claimed. In Chinese systems the modern translation of Standard Bearer is also used for the term grandmaster and representative of the style.

In traditional systems each style has only one grandmaster who is the head or father figure of the entire style and acts as the overseer and example to all the style's adherents. It is the grandmaster's duty to see that the style continues on intact to the next generation of students and masters as well as look deeply into the style itself for anything that can be strengthened in any way. As the grandmaster it is he only who has the authority to change the style's format for future generations legitimately. Usually, the grandmaster from one generation to the next is a prized disciple of the last grandmaster who has trained and mastered all the style's aspects including fighting techniques, theory and philosophy, and is publicly named the next grandmaster upon the current one's retirement. In various systems there are different traditions regarding this passing on of the title, some of which include a match between the successor and former heads of the style in order to demonstrate the new grandmaster's grasp of the style and his skill in its use.

A second use of the title is Tai Si Gong (Chinese) which literally translates to grandfather or master's master. This dates back to the family systems of martial arts where the Sifu or Sensei is the master and father figure of the students. The grandfather then is the generation beyond that and to the present students would be known as grandfather. This of course refers to a level of skill and wisdom for the grandmaster, however it is not the same as being THE grandmaster of a style.

Some more modern grandmasters claim the title is earned simply by them having promoted a student to master level, thus rewarding themselves and their accomplishment as an instructor with a higher level title. This is similar to the familial system as described above, but is not the same.

 

[Laurentkd]

Martialpedia Entry
http://www.martialtalk.net/wiki/index.php/Grandmaster

In traditional systems each style has only one grandmaster who is the head or father figure of the entire style and acts as the overseer and example to all the style's adherents. It is the grandmaster's duty to see that the style continues on intact to the next generation of students and masters as well as look deeply into the style itself for anything that can be strengthened in any way. As the grandmaster it is he only who has the authority to change the style's format for future generations legitimately. Usually, the grandmaster from one generation to the next is a prized disciple of the last grandmaster who has trained and mastered all the style's aspects including fighting techniques, theory and philosophy, and is publicly named the next grandmaster upon the current one's retirement. In various systems there are different traditions regarding this passing on of the title, some of which include a match between the successor and former heads of the style in order to demonstrate the new grandmaster's grasp of the style and his skill in its use.

Does "style" refer to the art, or to a specific lineage within an art? Take Taekwondo for example, does this mean there should be ONE Grandmaster for all of TKD (and if so who would anyone decide who it be)? Or should there be one for each little school system within TKD, like the highest ranked instructor who actually has control over anything done within the schools of instructors who trained under them before opening a school?

A second use of the title is Tai Si Gong (Chinese) which literally translates to grandfather or master's master. This dates back to the family systems of martial arts where the Sifu or Sensei is the master and father figure of the students. The grandfather then is the generation beyond that and to the present students would be known as grandfather. This of course refers to a level of skill and wisdom for the grandmaster, however it is not the same as being THE grandmaster of a style.

As I have said before, this is basically what we do.

 

[tshadowchaser]

I may be of an older mind set in regards to the term Grandmaster, for I feel there should
be one grandmaster per system. I fell that this title may be handed down from the previous GM when he retires from the art, or he may will it upon his death.
I do not feel that someone who just creates a system should be called grandmaster , nor should anyone who has bought his rank or title from a paper mill ( shokeship foundation).
If a person creates his/her own system then they should take on the title of founder and let time (generations) determine if the system continues and if the founder was truly innovative in their approach and deserves the title.
I will agree that a person may be asked to take the title if many with in the martial society ask him/her to because of years of teaching and the need to make room for future generations of students to gain rank or position in the hierarchy of that system.