Gays in the MA's

[Zero]

I've had gay friends that were martial artists but can't recall ever training with or there being any gay members at the various clubs and styles I have trained with over the years - though I'm sure there must have been as that's about 5 clubs over 20 years so I don't see on the stats how there couldn't be.

There is meant to be an all gay (male focused) brazillian jujitsu club somewhere round my area - now I'm not saying I would be joining up with that club anytime soon, no siree - but I would have no problem training, sparring or fighting with a gay martial artist for all the reasons already given above.

I guess (and hope) the flip side is that gay's have no problem training with us 'straights' - maybe the question we should be asking is how they find it and if we martial artists as a whole appear to be a decent open minded bunch and not a lot of red neck biggots?

 

[newGuy12]

When we are training we are usually too out of breath or in pain to actually articualte any like or dislike of anything let along sexual orientation. the most you'll get out of us is "water!" well apart from the cries of pain and pleas to god and Jesus! We are very religious in training, when an arm bar goes on! Seriously though we don't have the time or inclination to worry about sex, gender or much else really.

Well, with hesitation I continue to give my 2 cents worth here, because I have not yet been given bad reputation, and other users have said that is is okay to do so, and thank you.

Above it was said that it would be hard to imagine someone's being gay to be a problem. And this is why right here. Now, I train in the TaeKwonDo. I have had a *LITTLE* bit of experience with other schools, but not enough to say about it.

In this TKD, we have the tendency to make BIG, explosive motions and it is very tiring, especially to me. As a matter of fact, I have been told told by the Teacher before, "You can take a break if you wish to now", because I sometimes loose the breath, and must bend over for a minute. Of course, I do not choose to step out because that would be showing that I am not giving all of the heart.

Now, so, I say, this is the "macho way". We wish to rise to this occasion, and press ourselves with this physical exercise, right? This is what is seen to be the right way.

We are now running into complications with words and definitions. This "macho" is a Spanish word -- it means something like "strong". That is what we wish and what we strive for. It is not bad.

The word "queer", I cannot comment on, except to say that is sounds pejorative (to me) -- it sounds like "strange" -- as in "You do not do as we do". So, that is offensive, but again, I cannot speak for anyone who is of some gay disposition, who knows for sure?

Also, the main point of bother in my mind is this: If a straight man trains with a gay man, and then other straight men see this, they may think to themselves, "Oh, you are training with him, then you must also be gay." Well, of course, this is small thinking.

I will now be quite, but I can also one more thing -- there is a way of looking at this thread that it is a waste of time -- surely there is no such problem with some gay man joining a school and then being kicked out or derided for that, UNLESS, MAYBE, if there were something else going on -- say, if they were to say to someone, "You, I would like to get a peice of that!!!" Or just act out in some silly way, but at that point, they demonstrate that they are NOT serious about learning these kicks and punches, and so what is the point? Be gone with them if they wish to water down and spoil our practices.

This kind of thing surely does not happen often enough to be of interest, in my estimation.

 

[kidswarrior]

Well, with hesitation I continue to give my 2 cents worth here, because I have not yet been given bad reputation, and other users have said that is is okay to do so, and thank you.

Don't know why you'd get a neg rep. havent' ever seen anything amiss.

Also, the main point of bother in my mind is this: If a straight man trains with a gay man, and then other straight men see this, they may think to themselves, "Oh, you are training with him, then you must also be gay." Well, of course, this is small thinking.

The teens I work with come out of a very macho culture, so being 'Gay' is the ultimate insult they use with each other. It's become generalized now, so for example they'll say That's gay (doesn't even have to be a person, can be a thing).

Once in awhile when I'm joking with one or two, they'll use it on me. My response is always, So? What if I am? Stops them in their tracks and kinda gets them thinking. They're stunned by the fact I don't care what anyone else thinks.

 

[Kacey]

As far as I know there is not any queers where I learn Kung-Fu, Like most everybody here has said, talking about your sexual orientation has no place in martial arts, it has no place anywhere except with your mate.
I really don't care if someone is queer, just don't try to make me accept your life style.

I don't see how training with someone means you are being forced to accept [their] lifestyle. I have trained with a huge variety of people - and not one has ever even attempted to force anything, much less sexual orientation - and certainly, of all the possible lifestyle choices that could people could attempt to "force" upon me, and the situations in which such could happen, I've had problems with people attempting to "force" a religion upon me (being Jewish, I get this more than most - especially from acquaintances who are convinced I need to be "saved") - but in 21 years of active training, such issues (religious, sexual orientation, lifestyle choices, etc.) have never come up in a martial arts setting. What happens in the dojang is separate from the rest of the day - and that's the way it should be.

Should someone act inappropriately in the dojang, it will be dealt with - but most of the problems I've seen involved ego rather than any other problem, and that has nothing to do with gender or sexual orientation; it's a personality issue. How such issues are expressed may be related to gender or sexual orientation - but inappropriate behavior based on ego is the issue I see (when I see anything, which is rare), and that is the issue that is dealt with.

 

[Tez3]

Kacey, I get people wanting to 'save' me too lol! thanks but I like my religion....the foods better!
I agree with the ego thing too, something we do have in our club sometimes and we have to stamp on it quickly is 'rank'. As a lot of our students are soldiers they are obviously of different ranks, we've had one or two try to pull army rank on someone who outranked them in MA terms. They don't always like it when as they are an officer for example and they are being taught something by a private. Doesn't happen often and they do know that in sports there is no army rank or least thats the ideal.

 

[Balrog]

IMNSHO, no one in the school should be aware of anyone else's sexual preferences. Don't ask, don't tell.

 

[The Master]

It is truly enlightening to see individuals true selves revealed, in their choice of words.

Who one finds of interest is of as little interest to me as who they prefer in the general elections, or their preference of drink. What matters is, their desire to learn and teach, nothing more. As long as they are not a sexual predator, a criminal or in general an ****, and have good hygiene, I would be happy to share a floor with them.

Those who worry about such things are petty small minded people, blinded by their narrowness and lacking in the mettle of a true martial artist. As a wise man once said : Shut Up and Train.


And if I might be so bold, please do not stare at my bum. I shant stare at yours.

Good day.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

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Thank you.

 

[elder999]

I've had problems with people attempting to "force" a religion upon me (being Jewish, I get this more than most - especially from acquaintances who are convinced I need to be "saved") -.

I tried discussing this once before-it's a very Colorado thing-particularly around Colorado Springs, but also in Denver. I've encountered it more than a couple of times, both in Denver and Colorado Springs, as well as with my wife's relatives from Colorado, who are convinced that, while basically a "good person," I'm some sort of witch-doctor/satanist who's leading us both down the path to HELL....
....most "Christians" will give it a try and back off when you tell them to. Heck, all but the most "ridiculous" of fundamentalists have respect for Judaism, the root of Christianity... A firm "no thank you" should work really well.

 

[DArnold]

It's been that way since before WWI. The UCMJ makes homosexual acts (and analogous acts practiced between heterosexuals) illegal. Gays and lesbians have been subject to immediate dismissal and in some cases courts martial for being gay.

One of the reasons San Francisco became a center for gay people is that ban. During WWII many servicemen (mostly men) discharged for homosexuality returned to the US through the port of San Francisco and stayed there.

President Clinton tried to find a compromise with "Don't ask. Son't tell." It actually led to an increase in the numbers of gays and lesbians tossed out of the Service. Not surprisingly, during Vietnam and the current hose-out the number of soldiers involuntarily separated for homosexuality plummets. During peacetime they are purged because their existence is "harmful to good order and discipline".

That's because you're one of the ones on top.

Jokes? Yeah, I like some of them. But they have an effect, and it comes in below the critical facilities. The really nasty ones make a real and measurable difference in attitudes that is translated into actions.

I've spent a lot of time trying to figure out a way to do this less graphically. I just got off the phone with a fairly well-known Black writer and my (Black, Chinese, Muslim, published poet) wife to try and come up with a way that was less in-your-face but made the point anywhere near as effectively. They couldn't think of one either. So please bear with me. The next few paragraphs are nasty, but there's a very legitimate end to all of this:

"Whaddya call a thousand ******s swimming back to Africa with a kike under each arm? A good start!" used to be considered sidesplittingly funny. Now it's completely socially unacceptable, and thank G-d for that.

How far is that from the famous neo-Nazi poem that starts:


Note: The writer and the poet considered it one of the most compelling and well-constructed pieces of poetry they've seen in a while. The fact that it's well-done and effective doesn't make it better. It makes it worse

They're about half a step removed from what some of Portland's finest did some years back. They thought it was a great joke to leave rotting possums on the doorsteps of Black-owned restaurants. And that's all sorts of civil rights violations just waiting to happen the next time those cops interact with a Black person. It goes downhill from there.

A little while later a Black man who was a week away from entering the Police Academy was strangled to death by a Portland cop. The guy was an innocent bystander in a case where a (White) man robbed a 7-11. The cop came in and immediately attacked the Black guy and killed him. Part of his defense(!) was that Blacks are more susceptible to chokes and strangles than "normal people". Within days cops were wearing shirts showing an a dead man with exaggerated Black features and the caption "Don't choke 'em! Smoke 'em!"

The jokes and "pranks" helped make it acceptable to think of and treat anyone with dark skin as less than human. Anyone with more than three brain cells huddling together for warmth can see what follows. Yes, it's possible to go too far and become hypersensitive. But I'd rather err on the side of kindness and human consideration once in a while than tolerate that kind of dehumanizing crap and the very real injustice that comes with it.

One could write volumes about this for just about any group you care to think of - Women, Jews, Irishmen, Mexicans, Gypsies, Japanese, Poles and so on. In fact, people have. In every case degrading humor was one of the most common ways or reinforcing the hatred and keeping them in their place.

That sort of thing also makes it easier to keep people where they're "supposed" to be. If your fundamental attitude is that they aren't quite human or at least inherently a little inferior it makes injustice easy to overlook. They're where they are because they deserve to be. It's not my fault or the fault of anyone like me. So it's sure not my responsibility to do anything about it. If they were as good as me they wouldn't be there.

This is a little difficult for those who have been in the driver's seat to understand. If you're a straight White Protestant man there aren't that many jokes about what you are ethnically or religiously which cut you deeply, because humor hasn't been used on people like you that way so much. It's a joke. So what? When you don't have any reason to believe that you will be denied a job or place to live, charged more to buy a home, thrown out of a restaurant, raped or killed because of how you were born you just don't see it the same way as someone who has been.

The problem is you make more assumptions about my comments, and your comments, than I have time to comment on!

Most of the time each sides position lacks the common sense to take each case on its merrit. (As your examples do not prove anything)

Jokes are not a justification for violent action (I thought this archaic thinking went away with people thinking that the Three Stooges, Road Runner, and Bugs Bunny caused violence) Normaly it is just a stupid defense to try and show that a person is not responsible for their own actions.

That's because you're one of the ones on top.

Should I call this reverse descrimination?
Should I call this intollerance to others views.
I don't know, the United Caucasion College fund never did give me money!

I find it funny/amazing that you have judged me to be on top because I disagree with your position.

I find it funny that you judge me without knowing me!

This is the kind of knee jerk reaction that drives supporters of your position away.

In many instances I agree with you...

However I will not support you as long as you do not use your arguments intelligently, as long as you offend and attack those with a difference of oppinion you are really not that much different than those you rail against.

That is why I find the jokes funny.
One must be able to laugh at themselves.
As soon as you draw the line in the sand you become like the Muslems that wanted the teacher killed for naming the pet dog Mohamed.

A dialog and common sense are needed, but if I am intollerant or anti anything because my views don't agree with you... so be it, I am, and you will just have to learn to live with it because it is the foundation of this country.

This MOMMY state that some are trying to produce is what offends ME!

I would spend a lifetime protecting your right to say what you say, even though it goes against every fiber in my being.

Learn what freedom means,adjust your arguments accordingly, and I will support you!

Use the same tactics as your opponents and you are no better!

 

[Kreth]

I think I'd only have an issue if the person in question had to dominate every topic of conversation with their sexual orientation. That's not a MA thing, just a general pet peeve of mine.
On another note, given the general subject of "squid" jokes, it's amusing to see a "navy vet" tossing around the pejoratives.

 

[tellner]

Kacey and Tez, I've gotten the "Brother, have you heard of Jayzus" stuff, in class. As if any Jew living closer than Neptune could have failed to hear it with mind-numbing regularity.

At various times Jews for Jesus, the Jehovah's Witnesses, the nice young LDS missionaries and the Baptists (a few years ago when the SBC started its campaign to inform Jews about the existence of Christianity) have come to my house trying to buy my soul. How the Baptists knew that a Jew was living in that particular house is a question I find disturbing. Sometimes they kept coming back. In earlier days I had to learn to fight dirty and vicious because some couldn't take "No" or even "Hell, no!" for an answer.

Sometimes it's spilled over into martial arts classes. A few times it was part of the school ethos. You learn to avoid places like that. Sometimes it was bad actors at the school. Usually grown ups were grown up about it, but not always.

The gays have never tried to convert me to anything. The couple times a guy made a pass at me - not in any way connected to the martial arts - a simple "No thank you," worked just fine. I'm willing to bet that every woman here has had more trouble turning down an eager straight man at some point.

The most activist GLBT types I've met, and I've known a number of pretty serious ones, want to be left alone to live their lives with the same rights and privileges that straight people take for granted. Oh, and they'd like to do it without having to fear losing their civil rights, jobs, homes and lives if it isn't too much trouble. I don't know anyone in BRO, Lambda LDF or HRC who wants to force heterosexuals to work the other side of the street. The list of heterosexuals who are willing to try forced conversion therapy via rape is a tad longer.

The fundies - festering lice on the Body of whichever religion they happen to infest - have a different idea of acceptance and tolerance for their chosen lifestyle. They often want to force people on pain of death to believe and do exactly what they do. They're much more likely to, say, torture, exile or kill you if you don't toe the line. That was the choice given to my grandparents and great-grandparents. They left. The ones who didn't died at the hands of the Czars and Dolf's All-Boy Marching Band. If they decide that you need to be shown the Truth they will keep at it with the mindless ferocity of a little yappy dog going after a squeak toy. If you don't comply you could end up like the squeak toy.

I'd rather have the gays around, thank you very much. I've never seen them burn a lambda on someone's lawn. I've never been set on by a gang of lesbians and beaten bloody, although one hears that there are people who will pay a lot of cash money for something along those lines. I have gone through similar when members of the Bride of Christ decided to impart the Love of G-d to me on the point of a fist.

Living in Condition Yellow is fine. That's one of the goals of all good martial arts training. Living in Condition Orange because your fundie neighbors and fellow citizens have shot up your house again is not so nice. You can't maintain it for long without suffering permanent organic changes to the brain. Living in Condition Fuschia, otherwise known as "Oh Lord, here comes that swishy gay diva drama-queen again", is irritating but bearable

 

[DArnold]

Kacey and Tez, I've gotten the "Brother, have you heard of Jayzus" stuff, in class. As if any Jew living closer than Neptune could have failed to hear it with mind-numbing regularity.

At various times Jews for Jesus, the Jehovah's Witnesses, the nice young LDS missionaries and the Baptists (a few years ago when the SBC started its campaign to inform Jews about the existence of Christianity) have come to my house trying to buy my soul. How the Baptists knew that a Jew was living in that particular house is a question I find disturbing. Sometimes they kept coming back. In earlier days I had to learn to fight dirty and vicious because some couldn't take "No" or even "Hell, no!" for an answer.

Sometimes it's spilled over into martial arts classes. A few times it was part of the school ethos. You learn to avoid places like that. Sometimes it was bad actors at the school. Usually grown ups were grown up about it, but not always.

The gays have never tried to convert me to anything. The couple times a guy made a pass at me - not in any way connected to the martial arts - a simple "No thank you," worked just fine. I'm willing to bet that every woman here has had more trouble turning down an eager straight man at some point.

The most activist GLBT types I've met, and I've known a number of pretty serious ones, want to be left alone to live their lives with the same rights and privileges that straight people take for granted. Oh, and they'd like to do it without having to fear losing their civil rights, jobs, homes and lives if it isn't too much trouble. I don't know anyone in BRO, Lambda LDF or HRC who wants to force heterosexuals to work the other side of the street. The list of heterosexuals who are willing to try forced conversion therapy via rape is a tad longer.

The fundies - festering lice on the Body of whichever religion they happen to infest - have a different idea of acceptance and tolerance for their chosen lifestyle. They often want to force people on pain of death to believe and do exactly what they do. They're much more likely to, say, torture, exile or kill you if you don't toe the line. That was the choice given to my grandparents and great-grandparents. They left. The ones who didn't died at the hands of the Czars and Dolf's All-Boy Marching Band. If they decide that you need to be shown the Truth they will keep at it with the mindless ferocity of a little yappy dog going after a squeak toy. If you don't comply you could end up like the squeak toy.

I'd rather have the gays around, thank you very much. I've never seen them burn a lambda on someone's lawn. I've never been set on by a gang of lesbians and beaten bloody, although one hears that there are people who will pay a lot of cash money for something along those lines. I have gone through similar when members of the Bride of Christ decided to impart the Love of G-d to me on the point of a fist.

Living in Condition Yellow is fine. That's one of the goals of all good martial arts training. Living in Condition Orange because your fundie neighbors and fellow citizens have shot up your house again is not so nice. You can't maintain it for long without suffering permanent organic changes to the brain. Living in Condition Fuschia, otherwise known as "Oh Lord, here comes that swishy gay diva drama-queen again", is irritating but bearable

WOW do you have a lot of pent up anger!
Good luck

 

[Tez3]

It is truly enlightening to see individuals true selves revealed, in their choice of words.

Who one finds of interest is of as little interest to me as who they prefer in the general elections, or their preference of drink. What matters is, their desire to learn and teach, nothing more. As long as they are not a sexual predator, a criminal or in general an ****, and have good hygiene, I would be happy to share a floor with them.

Those who worry about such things are petty small minded people, blinded by their narrowness and lacking in the mettle of a true martial artist. As a wise man once said : Shut Up and Train.


And if I might be so bold, please do not stare at my bum. I shant stare at yours.

Good day.

At my age I'd be grateful indeed if anyone at all stared at my bum.

 

[tellner]

At my age I'd be grateful indeed if anyone at all stared at my bum.

Stare at your bum?

You married him, you get to stare at him

 

[Rich Parsons]

Have you noticed that the martial arts foster a lot of macho attitudes, and sometimes I'm as guilty as anybody. But that doesn't make it a good thing. If you've been in the arts for a long enough time, you'll remember when sexism and racism were still common in a lot of schools. Fortunately, that's dying out, I think. Here's my question--do you have openly gay martial artists in your school? How do you feel about training with gay students, classmates or instructors?

Our club does not have anyone that I know of who is gay or lesbian.

I have never had a gay/lesbian instructor.

I have trained with gay/lesbian students.

I know of one club that is owned by a lesbian. She is my friend. So is her partner. So are many of her students (* friends of mine *) be they gay/lesbian or straight.

It has never been an issue with me and no one I know of has made it an issue either.

 

[Kacey]

The gays have never tried to convert me to anything.

I believe that's what I said - that it's never been an issue in the dojang. I did not mention other settings - although it's never been an issue in other settings either - because the discussion is about homosexuals in the MA setting, and I didn't think any other setting was relevant. Neither has religion ever been an issue in the class - outside of class, yes, but never in a MA setting.

 

[terryl965]

Does this thread really mean anything except for those that are like voltures about certain things

 

[DArnold]

Does this thread really mean anything except for those that are like voltures about certain things

See post #6

 

[Tez3]

Stare at your bum?

You married him, you get to stare at him

:lfao: