Gas pricing

[Twin Fist]

Wish i could afford to buy a new car that could do this......

or we could just SET the price at something affordable, and oil companies could learn to live with lower profits.

 

[Lisa]

Wish i could afford to buy a new car that could do this......

or we could just SET the price at something affordable, and oil companies could learn to live with lower profits.

I have a family member who works for one of the oil companies in Alberta. The rate of pay she gets, the bonuses and the use of the company jet to take her to and from seminars is umm...well amazing to say the least.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Wish i could afford to buy a new car that could do this......

or we could just SET the price at something affordable, and oil companies could learn to live with lower profits.

That would require government regulation of the oil industry, which I don't think they would go for. Personally, though it's against much of my views of how things should be....I'd make an exception here. Make them public utility companies.

 

[Twin Fist]

Bob,
right there with ya. I DESPISE the idea of the government getting involved in business generally, but in this case, I am all for it.

i can go without bananas if bananas get too expensive.

As a nation,t he USA simply ceases to function is gas gets too high

the price of EVERYTHING else goes up as the price of gas goes up. Soon people cant go to work to earn money to buy food, when that happens, the nation as an entity stops working

 

[5-0 Kenpo]

In this thread, I am seeing an interesting psychological phenomenon. People seem to be willing to put aside their philosophical beliefs on government for an economic incentive.

 

[Twin Fist]

becasue the constitution isnt a suicide pact. The survival of the nation is more important than anything else.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

In this thread, I am seeing an interesting psychological phenomenon. People seem to be willing to put aside their philosophical beliefs on government for an economic incentive.

In my case, it's more of a 'lesser of 2 evils'.

On one side, it's a belief that government involvement should be minimal verses a death spiral as the nation heads into a recession as basic necessities of life become impossible for the average person to obtain.

Food prices are skyrocketing and shortages are beginning to develop as certain staples are diverted to fuel production, and transportation costs double and triple the prices. Truck drivers are paying -thousands- of dollars in gas and diesel, home heating was at record highs, and people are getting to the point of having to decide if they will eat or travel to work. We're not there yet, but I can see it coming.

I'll make an exception to my strict view of the Constitution if it will help bring fuel and food costs down.

 

[5-0 Kenpo]

Fair enough, but why not then support a constitutional amendment to change the rules, rather then change your strict constructionist view. The amendment process is constructionalist, independent of what the amendment itself says.

Yes, such a tactic would be time consuming. But further releasing the government to control whatever it would like without such a process would contribute to a further erosion.

And I would disagree, as would most I think, that the survival of the country is more important than anything else.

To use a phrase from economics, perhaps this is simply (to a greater or lesser extent) a correction in the market. Perhaps there is something greater that we should be working on rather then trying to consume as much as we can, as quickly as we can.

Of course, when you figure out what that is, let me know too.

 

[Cryozombie]

I think we should go to war for oil.

Oh... wait...

 

[Makalakumu]

In this thread, I am seeing an interesting psychological phenomenon. People seem to be willing to put aside their philosophical beliefs on government for an economic incentive.

The reason we are in this boat in the first place is because our leaders in the early part of last century, put aside all semblence of following the constitution and bowed down to their corporate bosses. We used to have a diversified field of transportation and of living, but the oil and auto companies basically put an end to that in favor of cars, roads, suburbs and industrial agriculture. The government destroyed independent livlihoods in order to create a nation of employees.

 

[Twin Fist]

"The reason we are in this boat in the first place is because our leaders in the early part of last century, put aside all semblence of following the constitution and bowed down to their corporate bosses. We used to have a diversified field of transportation and of living, but the oil and auto companies basically put an end to that in favor of cars, roads, suburbs and industrial agriculture. The government destroyed independent livlihoods in order to create a nation of employees."

as opposed to what? Did the president OREDER people to live int he burbs? Did the auto industry make cities not build rail systems?

People WANTED to do so. Why? living in the city sucks. For that matter, how does living in the burbs conflict with the constitution?

I am seriously confused here.

 

[Makalakumu]

"The reason we are in this boat in the first place is because our leaders in the early part of last century, put aside all semblence of following the constitution and bowed down to their corporate bosses. We used to have a diversified field of transportation and of living, but the oil and auto companies basically put an end to that in favor of cars, roads, suburbs and industrial agriculture. The government destroyed independent livlihoods in order to create a nation of employees."

as opposed to what? Did the president OREDER people to live int he burbs? Did the auto industry make cities not build rail systems?

People WANTED to do so. Why? living in the city sucks. For that matter, how does living in the burbs conflict with the constitution?

I am seriously confused here.

No one ordered it, but it was encouraged. After WWII, the federal housing commission gave millions of grants to returning veterans. Roads and planned communities were constructed with federal dollars outside of city centers in order to encourage the use of oil and the automobile. All economic plans form rail or other forms of mass transit were scrapped after major lobbying campaigns from corporate interests opposed to them.

None of this has any constitutional mandate. The federal government isn't supposed to form these corporate partnerships or use our tax monies to discourage one form of choice in favor of another. All of this was a form of socialism and goes against the libertarian traditions in which our country was founded.

I guess, at any rate, all of this may have happened anyway without any government prompting. Oil was cheaper then water in texas and people were looking for ways to put it to use. It's too bad that some of the early thinkers who advocated conservation were eschewed in favor of those who wanted to sell it as fast as they could pump it out of the ground.

Regardless of how it happened, the suburban lifestyle is a high energy living arrangement that is probably inappropriate for the current energy market we now face. No matter what, this is going to be a very painful time for Americans because its going to have to change. We've thrown all of our eggs in one basket in regards to a living arrangement that is unsustainable. I say keep the government out of it and let the price of gas do what it may. People need to have the freedom to decide how they want to live their lives in response to this. I don't want some corporate elite telling me how I should live my life.

 

[Twin Fist]

The problem with your "let it sort itself out" scenario is that it will lead to national disaster.

AS gas prices go up, so does the price of everything else. We are already seeing it.

Just as an example, say I spend all my available cash on gas, so i stop eating lunch. That puts the waiter at the restaurant I would have gone to out of a job. He cant go look for a job, because he doesnt have any cash to buy gas.

Since times are tough, I stop putting money into my savings account, That means with less money comming in, the bank has to fire a teller. Plus, they cant give out any more small business loans, and that puts more people out of work

No new home loans, that puts the contractors out of work.

Since every single thing in this country is transported by truck from somewhere to somewhere else, the price of gas increases the price of everything.

The prices of gas goes up too high, the cost of shirts at walmart goes up, no one buys them, wallmart goes under, MILLIONS are out of work.

It cant be allowed to happen. If for no other reason than if the nation goes under, there wont be any tax dollars to divert to funding research into Mr Fusion.


screw HOW we got here, it is irellevant. We are here NOW and we have to fix it.

Taking gas off the commodities market and Capping the price of gas at something affordable hurts no one but the oil industry, and they are making obscene profits at anything over $1 a gal.

I would be willing to pull out of the middle east entirely to fund it. Take all that money and pour it into research for the future and drilling and refining for the NOW.

 

[Makalakumu]

How we got to this point matters a lot. For the least of all reasons, its instructive that when the government attempts to do good for people, like giving returning veterans houses, building good roads so we can get to work from those houses, using federal money to build infrastructure to drill-refine-deliver oil products to keep the machine going, corporate interests will bend that goodwill for their own benefit.

The reason why the oil companies are making so much and charging whatever they want is because they helped to create a system that holds our country over a barrel so to speak, literally and figuratively. What will happen this time if we rely on the government to solve our problems this time? Who will benefit?

Right now, big agriculture is benefitting. Ethanol production is being highly subsidized by the government in response to the energy crisis we face with oil. Never mind that we basically are putting food into our gas tanks, creating global shortages and driving prices up everywhere. An elite few are making a lot of money off of this and they only way that it is profitable is for the government to subsidize it.

And it doesn't fix the problem!

As you so noted, our entire society is completely dependent upon cheap fossil fuel energy. And I agree, our country is facing a major economic disaster because of this. The problem isn't the price of energy though. It's the society that's been constructed for us. Nature determines the price of energy through its limitations. We determine how we use this energy regardless of the limitations imposed by natural law.

Actually fixing the problem isn't a bait and switch game of taking one energy source and converting to another. This will never solve anything because energy is never free. The real problem is a society that is predicated on wasting energy at every point possible. For example, why do I need to buy a pair of underwear that was made in China, when I can buy a perfectly good pair that was made by my neighbors in my home town? The only reason I can even make the choice NOT to do that is because cheap fossil fuel energy makes it possible to use labor at nearly slave wages to undercut my neighbors livlihood!

That example is ubiquitous across all of our society and its important to understand that it never used to be that way. At a certain point in time, American was self sufficient and we are a great enough country to do it again, we just can't do it in such a way that a ruling corporate elite can easily manage us.

If we are going to survive as a free people, the Walmarts of this country have to go. General electric, General Motors, and General Mills are ALL going to have to go. We are going to have to go back to a system that is NOT centralized, not controlled by a few, but maintained by the will of many. We need that network of small farms close to our cities producing food. We need to those ma and pa small businesses back in order to make and sell our goods. We need to take responsibility for our own energy needs because producing your own energy with the resources that surround you is always the most efficient way of producing power. We need to completely reshape our ideas about just who we think we need to depend on.

We need to relearn how to trust ourselves again and beleive in the greatness of our country's citizens.

Cheap fossil fuel energy made possible a centralized society where wealth and power could be consolidated into the hands of a few. All of the "generals" that I listed above would not exist without it. The dirty little secret is this, before those companies existed, people still lived fullfilling happy lives. More fulfilling, IMHO, because it was easier to be a person rather then a consumer.

So this is why I say let the chips fall as they may. America is filled with a bunch of great people who are perfectly capable of taking care of themselves. We don't need the "generals" to manage our needs like a rancher manages cattle. If the government steps in, the only reason it will do so is in order to maintain the corporate managed society that the elite crafted for us.

A different society is possible though. A society in which people are in charge of their own destinies again. Cheap fossil fuels is the only thing that makes the mass management of the globe possible. It's the only thing that keeps the massive piles of wealth and capital in the hands of the few.

I say let the market work and let this way of life die. Let the price of fuel rise as high as the sky and let the "generals" whither on the vine for their own arrogance. We don't need to be afraid because we are all smart enough to craft our own ways.

 

[Twin Fist]

Ok lets go back to the 1950's
No walmarts, no real global corporations, lots of mom and pop businesses.

Well, thats not too bad.
But how do we get there? I can only really see two ways. Either:
1. The government steps in and basically re-creates the entire country, by force, and puts about half of all americans out of work
2. we let the nation destroy itself and rebuild from the ashes.

hmmmmm

while the idea sounds pretty good, I think the cost might just be a little too high. While your idea isnt a bad one, there really is no way to do it without destroying the country.

 

[Makalakumu]

Ok lets go back to the 1950's
No walmarts, no real global corporations, lots of mom and pop businesses.

Well, thats not too bad.
But how do we get there? I can only really see two ways. Either:
1. The government steps in and basically re-creates the entire country, by force, and puts about half of all americans out of work
2. we let the nation destroy itself and rebuild from the ashes.

hmmmmm

while the idea sounds pretty good, I think the cost might just be a little too high. While your idea isnt a bad one, there really is no way to do it without destroying the country.

No, it won't be easy. But the price of creating this unsustainable society wasn't easy either. A LOT of people suffered the loss of their livlihood and freedom in order to do it. All of us have been impoverished with the general devaluation of our currency the glut of cheap energy fueled. One way or another, this way of life can't last and I am firmly convinced that if the government steps in to try and fix it, it will only make the problem worse for everyone but the corporate elite.

For me, the choice is clear. Do I want to live a wasteful life so I can depend on undemocratic corporate entities to provide for me or do I want to take care of myself and my family?

 

[Bob Hubbard]

You guys are both making good points. We need to know how we got here so we can avoid a repeat, plus understanding that might help us find the solution.

The highways and the car were encouraged, while other systems like train and rail and bike were not. Nations like Germany, Japan and a few others are decades ahead of the US in the use of rail to move people around. Even Canada has better public transportation networks than any US city I've been in.

Problem: Gas Prices are too high.
Why?

EIA analysis of the petroleum market points to the cost of crude oil as the main contributor to the record high gasoline prices that we are now experiencing.

The cost of crude oil now accounts for almost 70% of the gasoline pump price. World crude oil prices are at record highs due mainly to high worldwide oil demand relative to supply. Other factors contributing to higher prices include political events and conflicts in some major oil producing regions, as well as other factors such as the declining value of the U.S. dollar (the currency at which crude oil is traded globally).

http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/ask/gasoline_faqs.asp#gas_prices

So, it's high mostly because it can be. That Supply-Demand thing.

How do we fix that?
Unfortunately, the only option I can see working is if the government steps in, takes control of the oil companies and starts regulating the prices. That might however also cause other problems as we do not control the source of the oil.

Another thing that needs to be done now, and done with serious effort is to find an alternate to oil that can be made available to people at an affordable rate that does NOT cause increases in pollution, food prices, etc. Hybrids that combine gas, electric and solar. Total electric cars. Nuclear power. Hydrogen fuel cells, corn gas, etc are all short term dead end bandaids.

Corn goes up because it's now in demand.
As a result, less corn is grown for food, causing shortages.
Higher prices for feed corn = higher prices for chicken, beef and pork.
Higher fuel costs = higher costs of transporting food = higher prices for food.
This is the cycle that we're facing, and we need to get off, now.

So, nationalize the US oil companies, stop giving them kick backs, stabilize US oil/gas prices so that that food prices will drop. Stop growing corn for gas as there are other plants that have a better ROI for that, and fund the long term replacements so that they can be developed now, not in 20 years.

 

[Twin Fist]

What He said ^

Though it would be nice to see Bush get on the phone with king Faud and let him know that we are getting tired of getting robbed. Oh sure, he will say "ok fine, the chinese will pay it"

to which president Bush can reply, "ok, we have bought yours for the last 40 years to be nice, now we are gonna drill our own. Cancel all our orders. Oh, and by the way, since you wanted to be a jerk about it, we are pulling out all our troops from Saudi. And Iraq. And when iran takes over Iraq, then wants to invade you, call the chinese"


That will shut him up. Trust me, the Saudi's remember 1991 VERY well.

 

[FearlessFreep]

Just something to toss into the conversation

This is an article from 2004

Just how high will oil prices go?

To sum up (since I only skimmed TFA anyway), the position is that most of the increase n prices is due to increased demand (mostly from India and China).

I maintain the view that we may see sometime in future far higher prices than anybody envisions. The current oil bull market is purely a function of increased demand coming principally from Asia at a time global oil production has practically no spare capacity. China's car population has more than doubled since 2002.

It ends with this chilling prediction

And, in the case that oil prices were to rise in real terms to their 1980s highs - well over US$ 100 - then the foundation for World War Three would be laid and most certainly begin to weigh heavily on equity prices for which I cannot share the prevailing widespread optimism anyway. Financial stocks have begun to weaken and this is an indication that something is not quite right!

 

[terryl965]

Well OPEC has said they believeCrude will go past $200.00 a barrel and for every 1% the US dollar fails the crude will go up four dollars so at this rate gas prices will be around $4.50 a gallon by mid June. Well that just grat and saya alot about us as a whole.