Fraud.....

[James Kovacich]

Actually isn't that the goal of the martial arts teacher? To make the student better than the teacher?

anyway, just my thoughts
Rob

EXACTLY!

 

[Doc]

You know all this "rank" and "political" crap area among the reasons why I have nothing to do with kenpo anymore.

Heck, even when i thought i asked a pretty straight forward opinion-type question, I had to "define" it like 3 times cause kenpo guys seem to always overthink things.
Props again by the way to (i believe it was) Karazenpo for actually answering it!

Why is everyone so concerned about who is higher and according to who?

Let me ask you this, who promoted Mr. Parker to his 2nd thru 10th rankings?

Who promoted Mr. Chow to his rankings?

Who promoted Mr. Mitose to his rankings?


And on a somewhat more serious note, is there really a difference (that anyone could tell {without looking at the stripes} between a 5th & 6th degree blackbelt? How about 6th or 7th degree?)

P.S. Doc, this does not necessarily refer to whomever you are speaking of, but I think that it is possible for a student to learn & understand an art better than the founder (especially if the founder is deceased).
Here is why, by the reasoning that it took the founder of the art/style a series of trial & error experiments (for lack of a better term) whereas, for the student, this learning curve is greatly reduced and he/she can concentrate on the art itself and getting better at something that already exists.
Actually isn't that the goal of the martial arts teacher? To make the student better than the teacher?

anyway, just my thoughts
Rob

While I understand your point, and believe me I have no problem with the student ultimately excelling beyond his teacher, (that's what teachers and parents are supposed to do), but as usual, I choose my words carefully. I may excel beyond my teacher, in this case Ed Parker, but my rank should not advance any faster than his did in HIS art. I may become acceptable at what I do, but nobody will ever understand Ed Parker's Art better than he did himself. Most of these GM's, 10ths, masters, etc. made their rank faster Than Parker. We tend to think of him as always being a 10th, but in fact he held that rank for a relatively short period before he passed away.

 

[Toasty]

I see what you mean.
Thanks for responding Doc.



see ya
Rob

 

[Karazenpo]

Excellent points from both Doc and Toasty.

 

[Dionysianexile]

Well, this is a big topic for my first post here, but im going to try anyways.

I am quite new to the system, been in it less than a year. I am currently training under Professor Graham Lelliot. Mr. Lelliot has been in the system for a long time, and had his black belt longer than Ive been alive (Im 20 btw). Anyways, a few of the students asked him about black belt ranking one night, and inquired as to why he is only 6th degree when ther are others who have their 9th that started training after he recieved his BB. Mr. Lelliot told us about how BB advancements happened, and that he figured he could probably go before a board and do his thing and they would advance him, but he didnt see any necessity for it. He also told us that these younger and less experianced BBs stand out at tournaments, as they are quite timid, and often afraid to actually get out on the floor. I guess what im getting at is that what it comes down to, is that no matter how much red is on your belt, it is how one conducts themself, and what they can offer their community. As a student in the system, I believe that a person with a BB is supposed to be a teacher, and as a student, I try to learn as much as possible from my teacher. If my teacher cannot conduct themselves in an honorable manner, I cannot see myself maintaining respect for them. Thankfully, Mr. Lelliot has been nothing more than an excellent teacher. Ok, im done.

P.S. I look forward to learning from you all. Thank you.

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

As the years have dripped by, I've sat in the shadows and watched some really incredible kenpo instructors never advance their rank, because their personal instructors have passed on to the next life, retired, or some such thing. I've also watched guys with credentials like, "Kenpo green belt; judo black belt (1st degree)" move on to found their own styles as 10th degree black belts in stuff like "American ju-kenpo", lacking advanced understandings of either.

Martial artists who use their standing in community for vocational purposes will always have a motivation for wearing a rank that's one stripe higher than the next guy in the yellow pages. The uninformed public looking for classes does not know how to differentiate the quality of training from the purported expertise of the trainer. So they look for the guy with the most/highest certs on the wall. This will always be a problem.

The opposite extreme is occupied by folks who have exceeded the status on their belts, but because they train in small, unaffiliated circles, will never promote. Curiously, these are usually the guys who couldn't care less about promoting...they would take more pride in being a seriously kick-a$s 3rd degree then a crappy 10th.

I will probably die at the same rank I am now, and I'm more than OK with that. I haven't gotten better with time; I've gotten slower and more unrehearsed. As I get back into it and knock the rust off the hinges, I may get back to (or perhaps surpass) where I was when I left off. That will, in my eyes, only make me not a fool. If I can get back to being really freaking good at what I know, and clean it up with learning from some of the most excellent seniors I have the pleasure to be acquainted with, I can die happy and with my honor intact knowing that I wore my middlin' stripes with pride.

Pride and ego alone are not bad things. It's in where you place it.

I find my pride in being the best I can with what I know, and being able to "represent" capably. Currently, not too proud, because I'm seriously outta shape and outta practice (though I can still give the upstart youngsters a run for their money ;-). But I still have a gift of knowledge and information to pass on to upcoming generations beginning their journeys...of that, I'm proud.

Ego is what drives us to be bold participants in the field of competition in which we make our respective livings (how successful are sales reps who aren't full of themselves?). I would encourage some of you to consider that the traits compelling these men to do what they have are not innately bad, but rather only the individual choices on how to present these traits. Don't bemoan ego or pride in the arts...it's what drives champions to make arts famous enough to gain public interest for propogations sake, and instructors confident enough to stick it out there and share their knowledge with other people...like you and I. Bemoan instead the outliers who buy too much of their own BS. That's how this silliness gets started.

Dr. Dave

 

[Doc]

Well, this is a big topic for my first post here, but im going to try anyways.

I am quite new to the system, been in it less than a year. I am currently training under Professor Graham Lelliot. Mr. Lelliot has been in the system for a long time, and had his black belt longer than Ive been alive (Im 20 btw). Anyways, a few of the students asked him about black belt ranking one night, and inquired as to why he is only 6th degree when ther are others who have their 9th that started training after he recieved his BB. Mr. Lelliot told us about how BB advancements happened, and that he figured he could probably go before a board and do his thing and they would advance him, but he didnt see any necessity for it. He also told us that these younger and less experianced BBs stand out at tournaments, as they are quite timid, and often afraid to actually get out on the floor. I guess what im getting at is that what it comes down to, is that no matter how much red is on your belt, it is how one conducts themself, and what they can offer their community. As a student in the system, I believe that a person with a BB is supposed to be a teacher, and as a student, I try to learn as much as possible from my teacher. If my teacher cannot conduct themselves in an honorable manner, I cannot see myself maintaining respect for them. Thankfully, Mr. Lelliot has been nothing more than an excellent teacher. Ok, im done.

P.S. I look forward to learning from you all. Thank you.

You're with a good teacher and a good man. Tell him Ron Chapél said hey.

 

[Karazenpo]

As the years have dripped by, I've sat in the shadows and watched some really incredible kenpo instructors never advance their rank, because their personal instructors have passed on to the next life, retired, or some such thing. I've also watched guys with credentials like, "Kenpo green belt; judo black belt (1st degree)" move on to found their own styles as 10th degree black belts in stuff like "American ju-kenpo", lacking advanced understandings of either.

Martial artists who use their standing in community for vocational purposes will always have a motivation for wearing a rank that's one stripe higher than the next guy in the yellow pages. The uninformed public looking for classes does not know how to differentiate the quality of training from the purported expertise of the trainer. So they look for the guy with the most/highest certs on the wall. This will always be a problem.

The opposite extreme is occupied by folks who have exceeded the status on their belts, but because they train in small, unaffiliated circles, will never promote. Curiously, these are usually the guys who couldn't care less about promoting...they would take more pride in being a seriously kick-a$s 3rd degree then a crappy 10th.

I will probably die at the same rank I am now, and I'm more than OK with that. I haven't gotten better with time; I've gotten slower and more unrehearsed. As I get back into it and knock the rust off the hinges, I may get back to (or perhaps surpass) where I was when I left off. That will, in my eyes, only make me not a fool. If I can get back to being really freaking good at what I know, and clean it up with learning from some of the most excellent seniors I have the pleasure to be acquainted with, I can die happy and with my honor intact knowing that I wore my middlin' stripes with pride.

Pride and ego alone are not bad things. It's in where you place it.

I find my pride in being the best I can with what I know, and being able to "represent" capably. Currently, not too proud, because I'm seriously outta shape and outta practice (though I can still give the upstart youngsters a run for their money ;-). But I still have a gift of knowledge and information to pass on to upcoming generations beginning their journeys...of that, I'm proud.

Ego is what drives us to be bold participants in the field of competition in which we make our respective livings (how successful are sales reps who aren't full of themselves?). I would encourage some of you to consider that the traits compelling these men to do what they have are not innately bad, but rather only the individual choices on how to present these traits. Don't bemoan ego or pride in the arts...it's what drives champions to make arts famous enough to gain public interest for propogations sake, and instructors confident enough to stick it out there and share their knowledge with other people...like you and I. Bemoan instead the outliers who buy too much of their own BS. That's how this silliness gets started.

Dr. Dave

True, Dr. Dave. Everyone of us has an ego and it is ego that drives us to do good things, however, we all should be able to 'control and harness' that ego, that's when character steps in........ with some, ego is out of control and that is when problems arise. Ego is how we see ourselves, character is how others see us. Respectfully, Professor Joe

 

[kenpoworks]

"EGO" a small word that casts a big shadow.

check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ego#The_Ego for further insights into this tricky often used word.
Respectfully
Richi

 

[tmonis]

Hello Everyone,

It seems I am taking a lot of personal heat on this post about who I am refering to when I started this. It seems I have stepped on a few toes with this one. This was not my intention. And I am of the opinion if this is not they way you were promoted then there should not be a problem. However do to legal reasons I still will not tell you the name of who I refer to in this posting. But I tell you what lead me to this discussion.
I was surfing the web one night and ran across this Guy who lives in Iowa that claimed he was and had been a private student of the late Prof. Nick Cerio. Which was fine with me. Coming from a Prof. Cerio / Villari background I began a conversation with him to find out if I had in fact knew him or not. But as the conversation drug on I realized this guy was a fraud. He claim that Prof. Cerio had promoted him to 1st Dan in 1994 and because he was so good in Kenpo he was promoted by him again to 9th Dan in 2004. Do any flags go up for you at this point? Was he promoted from the Grave?I called him out on it and more or less told him he was lying about the whole thing. I asked where, when, and how he had trained with Prof. Cerio. He could not even tell me where Prof. Cerio lived in the Northeast. Let alone who his Instructor was etc. I then again told him he was lying. He then admitted to me that he had actually sent in a video tape to him and was promoted that way. I have never known Prof. Cerio to do that. Lying again. He then proceeded to tell me that it did matter what I thought because he had the backing a very well known Grandmaster ( Legally again I will mention any names) and that he had given him a rank of recognition to 9th Dan based on Prof. Cerio's certificate. (Fraud) and that they were traveling doing seminars together to promote Kenpo across the Country. The Grandmaster he travels with can in fact do that. Put this guy is a joke.
I did not mean to step on anyone toes on here. And if I offend you in any way, I am truly sorry. However once again if you did not get promoted the same way this guy did. Then I really don't see why anyone would be upset with me. I am not pointing any fingers at any particular group. I am only stating you have to be very careful about who you associate with. There are alot of phony people out there. It seems I have also learned this the hard way as well. I too have been pulled in many directions since I have been in Kenpo. The politics really suck. I have met a whole lot of people with hidden agendas, phony people, really great people and true to the art kind of people. If you can weed through the BS, Kenpo is a really awesome thing to learn and behold.

Respectfully and Humbly

Prof. Todd Monis.:asian:

 

[distalero]

As the years have dripped by, I've sat in the shadows and watched some really incredible kenpo instructors never advance their rank, because their personal instructors have passed on to the next life, retired, or some such thing. I've also watched guys with credentials like, "Kenpo green belt; judo black belt (1st degree)" move on to found their own styles as 10th degree black belts in stuff like "American ju-kenpo", lacking advanced understandings of either.

Martial artists who use their standing in community for vocational purposes will always have a motivation for wearing a rank that's one stripe higher than the next guy in the yellow pages. The uninformed public looking for classes does not know how to differentiate the quality of training from the purported expertise of the trainer. So they look for the guy with the most/highest certs on the wall. This will always be a problem.

The opposite extreme is occupied by folks who have exceeded the status on their belts, but because they train in small, unaffiliated circles, will never promote. Curiously, these are usually the guys who couldn't care less about promoting...they would take more pride in being a seriously kick-a$s 3rd degree then a crappy 10th.

I will probably die at the same rank I am now, and I'm more than OK with that. I haven't gotten better with time; I've gotten slower and more unrehearsed. As I get back into it and knock the rust off the hinges, I may get back to (or perhaps surpass) where I was when I left off. That will, in my eyes, only make me not a fool. If I can get back to being really freaking good at what I know, and clean it up with learning from some of the most excellent seniors I have the pleasure to be acquainted with, I can die happy and with my honor intact knowing that I wore my middlin' stripes with pride.

Pride and ego alone are not bad things. It's in where you place it.

I find my pride in being the best I can with what I know, and being able to "represent" capably. Currently, not too proud, because I'm seriously outta shape and outta practice (though I can still give the upstart youngsters a run for their money ;-). But I still have a gift of knowledge and information to pass on to upcoming generations beginning their journeys...of that, I'm proud.

Ego is what drives us to be bold participants in the field of competition in which we make our respective livings (how successful are sales reps who aren't full of themselves?). I would encourage some of you to consider that the traits compelling these men to do what they have are not innately bad, but rather only the individual choices on how to present these traits. Don't bemoan ego or pride in the arts...it's what drives champions to make arts famous enough to gain public interest for propogations sake, and instructors confident enough to stick it out there and share their knowledge with other people...like you and I. Bemoan instead the outliers who buy too much of their own BS. That's how this silliness gets started.

Dr. Dave

It occurs to me that pride is most often (maybe always) more a self made value judgement of, and frequently a more or less subtle justification of, acts arisen out of an ego; may or may not be justified, but as such it's removed from the reality of the situation, pretty much an author/actor/audience of one, potentially not so good in a contest of two. "Pride goeth before a fall", says the old saying; "Don't look back", says the song; "Just do it", says Nike, "Your bill, Sir", says reality.

 

[dogboy]

You are right, 3/4 of the kenpo guys claiming rank have gone up several degrees in the last 2 or 3 years.

 

[dogboy]

Karazenpo is one of the worst offenders.

 

[Karazenpo]

Karazenpo is one of the worst offenders.

Well, well, Dogboy. So you surface again. First it was on Nick Cerio's Kenpo forum, then the Kajukenbo Cafe, and finally your poison e-mails to Grandmaster S. George Pesare of which I replied after Gm. Pesare forwarded it to me and I asked you to either face the man with your allegations or at least reveal your identity of which you did neither. NOW, you can accuse whoever you want about abuse of rank, fraud and as you stated in a previous post 'jumping up degrees' but when it comes to me, YOU BETTER HELL GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT! I shouldn't have to defend myself but just to show those who are unaware of my history I will. Listen closely, my friend. I have been in the martial arts for going on 32 years in 2005. On May 19th, 1992 I was promoted to 6th dan and bestowed w/ the title of shihan by the late Professor Nick Cerio in Warwick, R.I. Go to his website, I'm on the tree along with my wife Kathy. After that, I, too, got fed up with the abuse of rank I was seeing and watching others who were shooting ahead of me in rank. I developed a very negative attitude about dan rankings and never went up again of my own volition until April 13th, 2003 while training at Gm. S. George Pesare's Kaito Gakko and that was for my 7th dan, yes, 11 YEARS AFTER MY 6TH DAN I WAS PROMOTED 7TH AND STILL HAVE THAT RANKING. Hanshi Craig Seavey, co-head of Nick Cerio's Kenpo talked me into changing my attitude because he felt I was biting my nose to spite my face as they say. Now, since then, I have received other promotions and recognitions of rank including personally from Sijo Victor 'Sonny' Gascon BUT THEY WERE ALL FOR WHAT I ALREADY HAD, 7TH DEGREE BLACK BELT....NOW, WHAT PART OF THAT DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND, DOGBOY? To my brothers and sisters on Martialtalk, I have dogboy's e-mails in my saved documents (see, you never know when you're going to need documentation.......I learned a lot in 28 years as a police offcier, lol), I will retrieve what ever I saved and will post it on this forum. Open challenge to dogboy: Come meet me in Milford, we'll go to my school and I will be most happy to allow you to view my certficates. One of the moderators on Martialtalk has visited me and watched a class, Sheldon, a helluva a nice guy.

 

[Karazenpo]

Here's my response back in July of 2003 to dogboy's poison e-mails to Gm. Pesare. He used three handles, either dogboy, bigdog or annonymous:




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From : Joseph Shuras <[email protected]>
Sent : Thursday, July 3, 2003 8:11 PM
To : [email protected]
Subject : Fwd: Dog boy

| | | joes docum... | Inbox






Dog boy, 'Big Dog', Anonymous, obviously you are are a dog, but none like I have ever owned because you have your tail between your legs and are 'petrified' of revealing who you are. If you have a problem with Mr. Pesare and doubt his abilities in the arts why do you hide like a weasel, a spineless coward, and don't approach him , mano-mano, in case your limited education can't decipher what that means, its MAN TO MAN! Something I doubt you know the meaning of. Myself, being very fond of dogs, I feel it is an insult to refer to you in some of your handles, so I will refer to you as "Missy", and I'm sure you'll figure out what I am implying.

Missy, first of all realize, I have been in law enforcement for nearly 27 years so if I want to really 'dig' I can trace your three IP's, yeah, surprise, like I couldn't figure out you're the same person who posted on the Nick Cerio forum and the Kajukenbo Cafe, like I don't know that Mr. Pesare's mailing list may turn up your identity, hello? I asked you nicely and signed it respectively submitted and was willing to hear you out and discuss YOUR PROBLEM, REMEMBER YOU'RE THE A-HOLE THAT E-MAILED ME, I didn't e-mail you. Now, I ask for a response and your identification and you cower. So, here's the deal, you come see me. I'm easy to find, I'm a police officer in Milford, Massachusetts, don't look in the phone book because my elderly father has the same name and if you bother him I will hunt you down like the dog you are, sorry about that, I have respect for dogs, MISSY. I am willing to discuss your problem civilly but if you are that scared then I ask that you take me off your mailing list and don't clutter my inbox with your garbage. Got it, a-hole!



>From: "dog boy"
>To: ,,,,,,,
>Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 14:19:09 -0400
>

The only thing I touched on this was I had to change one of my 'descriptive' adjectives to a-hole for this forum, lol. Joe

 

[dogboy]

I too have the documentation, the message I sent back then (July 2003), that you are referring to was one written personally by Mr. Gascon to Mr. Pesare, and sent to several others as a copy. I DIDN'T WRITE THE OFFENSIVE OR ACCUSATIOAL CONTENT, I simply asked what he (Mr. Pesare) thought about it. Why he had you respond to it, I don't know. Again, I didn't write it, he did. So, if he promoted you (Mr. Gascon), then you should believe what he wrote. I won't post it here, because it is very negative to Mr. Pesare, and I DO have a lot of respect for Mr. Pesare. However, my friends in RI tell he isn't pleased with you anymore. George Pesare is one of the most respected me in New England when it comes to martial arts, whether Gascon made him a whatever doesn't even matter. I would study with Mr. Pesare even if he said he created all of his material.

I have heard several stories of Karazenpo promoting people, only to take it away later, or to start a negative campaign about the person.

I have no beef with you on a personal level. This is a forum, where any and all opinions can and should be discussed, and you shouldn't becaome offensive about them. My opinion is as stated.

Relative to viewing your certificates : ) I don't actually care what certificates you have. But I would like to meet you.

 

[Karazenpo]

I too have the documentation, the message I sent back then (July 2003), that you are referring to was one written personally by Mr. Gascon to Mr. Pesare, and sent to several others as a copy. I DIDN'T WRITE THE OFFENSIVE OR ACCUSATIOAL CONTENT, I simply asked what he (Mr. Pesare) thought about it. Why he had you respond to it, I don't know. Again, I didn't write it, he did. So, if he promoted you (Mr. Gascon), then you should believe what he wrote. I won't post it here, because it is very negative to Mr. Pesare, and I DO have a lot of respect for Mr. Pesare. However, my friends in RI tell he isn't pleased with you anymore. George Pesare is one of the most respected me in New England when it comes to martial arts, whether Gascon made him a whatever doesn't even matter. I would study with Mr. Pesare even if he said he created all of his material.

I have heard several stories of Karazenpo promoting people, only to take it away later, or to start a negative campaign about the person.

I have no beef with you on a personal level. This is a forum, where any and all opinions can and should be discussed, and you shouldn't becaome offensive about them. My opinion is as stated.

Relative to viewing your certificates : ) I don't actually care what certificates you have. But I would like to meet you.

Okay, let's start over, I have no problem with that but first let me get a few things out of the way. You stated: "I have heard several stories of Karazenpo promoting people, only to take it away later, or to start a negative campaign about the person."

I say: I have never, ever recinded a rank. Check out my family tree of black belts on the Kenponet, they are all there. I do, however, have it written on all certificates that I reserve the right to recind the rank. My only reason for that is what I have seen happen to some martial artists who got into serious trouble with the law, I mean serious! So, as a police officer I do have obligations and responsibilites, so if I do have a 'bad apple' in the future, I would recind such rank as to make a statement that criminal behavior by my students is not tolerated. So, now, we can put that one to sleep.

You stated: "However, my friends in RI tell he isn't pleased with you anymore."

I say: Yes, Gm. Pesare and myself, and this is how he told me to phrase it if anyone asked, "We had a personal disagreement and that's between him and I." I will add only this so no one jumps to any conclusions, it was a 'political' disagreement that snowballed, regrettable but it happened. Sigung John Bishop can vouch for me that it was no more than that. My wife Kathy is still on very good terms with Gm. Pesare. She just brought our students to his "Best of the Best" tournament just last October. So, you see, it's just something between George and I that couldn't be worked out and we went our seperate ways but I still show respect for the man and don't discourage my wife at all from keeping her relationship with him, that would be immature. She is invited by him personally to all his functions both social and martial arts. Believe me, it was Gm. Pesare that was not at all happy with your e-mails, trust me on that one!


You wrote: I too have the documentation, the message I sent back then (July 2003), that you are referring to was one written personally by Mr. Gascon to Mr. Pesare.

I say: Okay, yes, it was over an e-mail from Sijo that was forwarded to various people. They did have a 'blowout' but, as a moderator on the Kajukenbo Cafe under Kajukenbo's Extended family I had posted something positive on George Pesare. You replied with sarcastic remark that I agree with you it shouldn't be posted again, and then you ended it with: "That's not Kajukenbo to me". If you don't remember, just go back to the Cafe, it's still there. Then, you kept posting it when Nick Cerio's Kenpo used to have their discussion forum and the webmaster kept deleting it with a nice explaination to you but you posted again and made reference to his decision to delete. All in all, it sounded very much like you were upset with him and very sarcastic not to mention you also forwarded that e-mail to numerous people, we have record of that also. Perhaps, you've changed your attitude and that's fine but we only acted on what we read and it wasn't nice!

You stated about Gm. Pesare: "I would study with Mr. Pesare even if he said he created all of his material."

I say: No, not true. Mr. Pesare did add much to the Karazenpo system he taught but not all. His basics came from Sijo, the 1-5 forms that are called katas in Shaolin Kempo Karate and the numerous 'original' techniques referred to as combinations along with a lot of mat work (Judo) all came from Sijo Gascon to Gm. Pesare.

Last, but not least, I have no personal problem with you either since we never met but you do stand corrected on that erroneous statement you made about me, I hope I got my point across on that and made myself perfectly clear because that one hurt!, lol. I'm not vindicative and don't hold grudges and as stated in my first e-mail to you in 2003, I'd be happy to meet up with you. Just do me a favor, call the Milford Police Dept., ask for my extention (voice mail) and leave me a call back number I can reach you at.

Take care & Be safe, Professor Joe


PS: We do have one more policy that maybe someone got confused and my wife is now the main 'enforcer' of that one. If someone misbehaves, screws around in class or in the school period, gets lax on their training or we get a parent complaint or one from their school teacher, Kathy does take their belts and holds them for a while in the office until they make ammends to the problem, but, unless they quit, they eventually get them back. Until then they wear 'no belt'. We never take the certificates back for these minor infractions. Also, if someone is away for a while and they don't feel comfortable wearing their rank, they wear no rank until caught up. I got this idea from Gm. Pesare when I was training their for the first time in the 70's only there, it was the rule, it wasn't an option.

 

[tmonis]

Gentlemen,

This is such non-sense. The Person I am refering to does not come from an organization that I reconize. He claims to have been a private student of Prof. Cerio. That is why I e-mailed him to see if I had trained with him. He never made claims about Prof. Shuras, Sijo Gascon's or anyone in the Karazenpo group at all. Hell he didn't even know about Prof. Cerio's organization from back in the day. He did not claim anything like that about any other organization what so ever. He was from Iowa. From an organization out there. I never heard of it and unfortuntely I deleted his e-mail with it on it. I am not in good standing with the Karazenpo group any more due to politics and friendships, however the truth is the truth. He never made claims to have belong to Karazenpo, George Pesare, NEKICK, Ed Parker or anyone other than Prof. Cerio. In my opinion. He was really trying to promote himself. No one else.
Please stop pointing fingers at other groups or organizations. They all have a common purpose. Most of them just want to help the small Kenpo school owner giving them a place to belong or help them out with seminars,testing, fellowship or whatever. Yes there are some real bad ones out there that only want your money. I know there are friends promoting friends to high places etc. But all in all, I feel that most people are good at heart and in there mind they really just want to help. My sole purpose for having started this posting was to simply state that there are frauds out there and that they are practicing promotions really quickly. So before you join one of them you need to do your research first. I really wished I would have kept my opinion to myself now and just let whomever follow whomever and if you got stung by a bad person then so be it. But I was only trying to help.
This is Boo!!!

 

[Seig]

Admin Warning

Keep the conversation polite and respectful.
Seig
MT Ops Admin

 

[tshadowchaser]

Gentelmen we seem to have drifted from the original question. Lets not make this a personal warring area. Lets just ( if we must) disscuss how somwone in any organisation might jump in rank that fast.
Other than a GM seeing something so outstanding in a person that HE decides to make that person responsible for the system upon His death I see no reason for such a jump in rank. Sometimes a spark might be seen that would make a GM say "this is who I want to run things" but I doubt that has happened often. I am leaveing room for doubt as there may be other considerations.