9th degree promotion from a man who died 2 years ago

[Headhunter]

So in the American kenpo world there’s some drama brewing (again)

im not going to name the gentlemen involved in this but frank Trejo was a very senior figure in Kenpo died in 2018.

recently someone was promoted to 9th dan...okay whatever BUT according to the guys instructor frank Trejo endorsed the promotion and on the promotion certificate frank trejos signature is on the certificate...which was made this year. Also controversy is the fact that Trejo didn’t even promote this gentleman to 8th dan let alone 9th and the gentleman had only been an 8th dan for a year.....as an aside it’s meant to take 2 years to go from first to second dan...

my personal opinion is it’s disrespectful to use a dead mans signature to promote your student and what’s it done has called into question the gentleman’s rank and the legitimacy of it. The instructor should’ve just promoted his guy with his own signature and not come out with these claims.

now I do not know any of the people involved in this but I met Trejo a couple of times over the years and he was as legit as they come.

just wondering what people thought of this.

 

[dvcochran]

To be clear, you are saying someone was promoted to 9th Dan and the certificate is 'signed' by a dead man? If this is true, it is a fake/false certificate IMHO.
The only exception I can think of is if the certificate is honorary and the recipient was legitimately ready before the passing but had justifiable reasons (health?) as to why they could not test sooner.

 

[Headhunter]

To be clear, you are saying someone was promoted to 9th Dan and the certificate is 'signed' by a dead man? If this is true, it is a fake/false certificate IMHO.
The only exception I can think of is if the certificate is honorary and the recipient was legitimately ready before the passing but had justifiable reasons (health?) as to why they could not test sooner.

Yes but the issue is that the man in question didn’t even promote him to 8th dan but according to the one in charge of this. It was the dead mans wishes for him to be promoted to 9th.....even though he was Only a 7th when he died....oh and there’s no test involved. In Kenpo they don’t test after 5th dan and are just awarded the rank with no tests at all. I don’t agree with that at all but yeah

 

[jobo]

To be clear, you are saying someone was promoted to 9th Dan and the certificate is 'signed' by a dead man? If this is true, it is a fake/false certificate IMHO.
The only exception I can think of is if the certificate is honorary and the recipient was legitimately ready before the passing but had justifiable reasons (health?) as to why they could not test sooner.

or he could have signed a load of certificates be fore he died ?

if that a problem really depends on what the certificate says, if he has been promoted by virtue of a committee and the signature is just a final approval of the legitimacy of the committee is seem all right to me

of course thw whole thing of honour promotions is beyond pointless, if the signaturee is dead or alive so it seem a row about nothing

 

[dvcochran]

Yes but the issue is that the man in question didn’t even promote him to 8th dan but according to the one in charge of this. It was the dead mans wishes for him to be promoted to 9th.....even though he was Only a 7th when he died....oh and there’s no test involved. In Kenpo they don’t test after 5th dan and are just awarded the rank with no tests at all. I don’t agree with that at all but yeah

I am not familiar with the structure of BJJ so cannot fairly speak to it. I know TKD often get bashed for various reasons but I am certain this would never happen, at least in the WT system. Nothing is automatic.
IMHO, it speaks to the systemic problem in MA as a whole that takes away from the value of such an accomplishment.
9th Dan is a hell of an achievement. Being 7th/5th/1st Dan I can certainly appreciate it. That said I would have never considered my 7th Dan wholly as an honorary degree. In no way am I what I was in my competition days and I get emotions affecting rational decisions but there is a bigger picture to be considered.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I am not familiar with the structure of BJJ so cannot fairly speak to it.

I'm pretty certain this incident was within the Kenpo community.

 

[dvcochran]

I'm pretty certain this incident was within the Kenpo community.

My bad. I stand corrected.

 

[geezer]

Headhunter, are you a Kempoist? And a member of the organization in question? If so I understand your ....er, interest in this.

For the rest of us who are not in American Kenpo, why would we care? In most organizations, the highest ranks above 5th degree or so have a big "honorary" component pertaining to status within the organization and contributions made to the particular art. Not too different than an honorary PhD. These things are just recognition by your peers within the group and may not have anything to do with skill.

Besides, an awful lot of the founders and headmen of martial arts organizations were either self-promoted after a certain point, or given their higher ranks by committees of their friends and associates for whatever reasons. What rank did James Mitose, or Ed Parker, or the Tracy Bothers, or Adrian Emperado, or... you name them ....ever actually receive as students from a higher ranked teacher?

So in short, who cares???

 

[dvcochran]

Headhunter, are you a Kempoist? And a member of the organization in question? If so I understand your ....er, interest in this.

For the rest of us who are not in American Kenpo, why would we care? In most organizations, the highest ranks above 5th degree or so have a big "honorary" component pertaining to status within the organization and contributions made to the particular art. Not too different than an honorary PhD. These things are just recognition by your peers within the group and may not have anything to do with skill.

Besides, an awful lot of the founders and headmen of martial arts organizations were either self-promoted after a certain point, or given their higher ranks by committees of their friends and associates for whatever reasons. What rank did James Mitose, or Ed Parker, or the Tracy Bothers, or Adrian Emperado, or... you name them ....ever actually receive as students from a higher ranked teacher?

So in short, who cares???

I am having a hard time seeing this point of view. Granted, it doesn't necessarily matter on a personal level but as a proponent and activist of martial arts it should matter who is recognized at such high levels regardless of style, for the integrity of MA's it nothing else. I certainly do not see a PhD as the run of the mill bachelor of arts degree. It takes considerably longer and the commitment is vastly greater, for a PhD or a high Dan ranking.
Either achievement is a personal decision. That said, I doubt many of us set out as a white belt with the idea of reaching 9th Dan, or even 5th Dan for that matter.
So who cares? I hope most of us. Accomplishment and acknowledgment is a great thing.

 

[Tames D]

I hold rank in Kenpo and one of my certs has Ed Parker Sr's signature on it as well as my instructor at the time, and witnesses. Parker was dead long before I tested for rank. I never thought of my rank as not being legitimate.

 

[Headhunter]

Headhunter, are you a Kempoist? And a member of the organization in question? If so I understand your ....er, interest in this.

For the rest of us who are not in American Kenpo, why would we care? In most organizations, the highest ranks above 5th degree or so have a big "honorary" component pertaining to status within the organization and contributions made to the particular art. Not too different than an honorary PhD. These things are just recognition by your peers within the group and may not have anything to do with skill.

Besides, an awful lot of the founders and headmen of martial arts organizations were either self-promoted after a certain point, or given their higher ranks by committees of their friends and associates for whatever reasons. What rank did James Mitose, or Ed Parker, or the Tracy Bothers, or Adrian Emperado, or... you name them ....ever actually receive as students from a higher ranked teacher?

So in short, who cares???

You could apply that logic to every single post on this forum. This is a martial art forum made to discuss martial arts....and this thread is about martial arts

 

[geezer]

You could apply that logic to every single post on this forum. This is a martial art forum made to discuss martial arts....and this thread is about martial arts

Sure. But ranking systems? That is entirely style-specific. So I won't be judging the relative merits of what are essentially "honorary ranks" outside of my own organization. And I find it interesting how elaborate and often very political upper-level ranking systems have evolved in so many systems where their founders or leaders were essentially either self-promoted or promoted by students and friends.

That is equally true of my core system, Ip Man lineage Wing Chun. Ip Man had respect but held no rank. But since the 1970s, dozens of his students and grand-students are now Masters, Grandmasters or even Great-GrandMasters. Then their students break away, form new organizations and end up calling themselves Master or Grandmaster. It's pretty much the same in a lot of martial arts. ....So why should I, as an outsider to a system, judge who signed somebody's certificate. Sound's too close to fraud-busting to me.

In an art without bona-fide competition to assess performance, I guess the best you can do is judge on the basis of experience, knowledge, and legitimate connection with a lineage. I don't worry so much about titles and certificates.

 

[geezer]

BTW if you look at by MT name-thingie, You'll see that my years of mouthing off and posting here have earned my the title of MT "Grandmaster". Now that's something I can objectively claim! Never got a certificate though.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Sure. But ranking systems? That is entirely style-specific. So I won't be judging the relative merits of what are essentially "honorary ranks" outside of my own organization. And I find it interesting how elaborate and often very political upper-level ranking systems have evolved in so many systems where their founders or leaders were essentially either self-promoted or promoted by students and friends.

Earning whatever rank qualifies (in a given system) as a Master implies they've learned the entire system. Grandmasters are typically promoted for service to the art, primarily teaching and/or service to the organization as a whole.

Honorary rank (like an honorary degree) carries the implied understanding that the person doesn't actually know diddly about the subject.

 

[Buka]

Martial Arts should have gone with hats and epaulettes instead of belts.

I think we all would have looked the balls.

 

[skribs]

You could apply that logic to every single post on this forum. This is a martial art forum made to discuss martial arts....and this thread is about martial arts

About the only thing I could see is that since it is specific to kenpo, it might be better suited for the kenpo forum than the general forum.

But that message gets lost in his "who cares?" attitude.

 

[Flying Crane]

Well, I will say that putting someone’s signature on a certificate after that person is already dead is pretty bad form. Putting his name as a reference to lineage would be fine, but the signature implies the fellow was there to sign it. I’m guessing there was a pile of pre-signed certificates, or even certs that were pre-printed with the fellow’s electronic signature on it and the protocol and agreement was that these were used for promotions and it was understood. Perhaps those ought to have been destroyed when the fellow became deceased. But if someone else actually took a pen and signed Mr. Trejo’s signature after Mr. Trejo was dead, well that is fraud plain and simple, there is no way around it.

Personally, I think the Kenpo world has gotten so twisted around with this kind of thing, it just doesn’t surprise me. Glad I’m no longer a part of it.

@isshinryuronin, in another thread you and I discussed my suggestion that the dan rankings be eliminated and only two black belt ranks ought to exist: non-teacher, and teacher. Beyond that, there would be no higher promotions. This is a perfect example of what my idea is intended to eliminate. I know that nobody will adopt it, at least not on a wide scale use. But this is why I came up with it.

 

[dvcochran]

BTW if you look at by MT name-thingie, You'll see that my years of mouthing off and posting here have earned my the title of MT "Grandmaster". Now that's something I can objectively claim! Never got a certificate though.

Well, that does make a good argument for the perspective many of us have. Belts and rank are for organizational purposes when you look at them from the systemic level. There is nothing wrong with getting recognition for time in grade (in whatever), much like our MT title (or whatever it is called).
Most of us know if you go far enough back there were no ranks or belt colors (or belts). But as the sport/hobby/pastime grew it became necessary to develop organizational triggers and recognition for time/effort. Much of it parrots military structure so it was not all that far of a leap.
I fully get and agree that there a more than a few self appointed 'masters' out there that are outright hacks and more that are doing nothing more than stroking their own ego, no matter how proficient they are. But I believe there were even more legitimate teachers/instructors that promoted themselves as their school/style/system grew. Something of a natural evolution.

 

[geezer]

...I believe there were even more legitimate teachers/instructors that promoted themselves as their school/style/system grew. Something of a natural evolution.

I've seen a lot of this, too So you think it's ...good? ...bad? ...OK and just to be expected?

 

[dvcochran]

I've seen a lot of this, too So you think it's ...good? ...bad? ...OK and just to be expected?

I think it was necessary to maintain some degree of organizational structure. It is also a motivational tool of course. I think it is good as long as the promotional process is perpetuated. It should evolve as time, knowledge, size, and structure grows. What worked in 1950 likely does not work as well today. I am only talking about promotion, structure and such, not the physical aspects of any MA itself.