Fraud.....

[shane23ss]

I want to say I think Doc is right on the money with his response. I am new to this site and as you can see only 1st Degree. I myself have witnessed some of this in the school where I used to train. My instructor once gained two degrees at once without really doing anything. I just went to class one day and he had two more red stripes. The other students nor myself really said anything. I was in denial and really didn't want to believe in any kind of fraud simply because of my love for Kenpo, and that was the only school even close to my area, I knew if I left there was no where else to go. I eventually got my balck belt and the school is now closed. I was wondering if anyone had any suggestions on how some one in my situation would go about moving up in the ranks, without a Kenpo school near. Thanks

 

[tmonis]

I want to say I think Doc is right on the money with his response. I am new to this site and as you can see only 1st Degree. I myself have witnessed some of this in the school where I used to train. My instructor once gained two degrees at once without really doing anything. I just went to class one day and he had two more red stripes. The other students nor myself really said anything. I was in denial and really didn't want to believe in any kind of fraud simply because of my love for Kenpo, and that was the only school even close to my area, I knew if I left there was no where else to go. I eventually got my balck belt and the school is now closed. I was wondering if anyone had any suggestions on how some one in my situation would go about moving up in the ranks, without a Kenpo school near. Thanks

Shane unfortunately We had a guy here that got everyone to sign a bunch of contracts and bank drafts from people banks and trained with them for about 4-5 months. He had skills to. I think he was supposed to be a 5th Dan. His students went to class one day and he taken the money and left town. Tell me that didn't hurt us in the Kenpo world.

My suggestion to you is to start teaching privately or open up a place of your own. then start doing some research on real Kenpo Organizations that can really help you. Affiliate with true Kenpo stylist that can lead you in the right direction and ones that can help you get promoted. BUT BE EXTREMELY CAREFUL ABOUT WHO YOU ASSOCIATE WITH. Their are some real frauds out there. You can be tested by legimate Kenpo stylist. But you will have to sit before a panel in order to do it. And if you are a 1st degree and they promote you to a 6th degree. You know something is truly wrong with that. What state do you live in?

 

[Matt]

Shane unfortunately We had a guy here that got everyone to sign a bunch of contracts and bank drafts from people banks and trained with them for about 4-5 months. He had skills to. I think he was supposed to be a 5th Dan. His students went to class one day and he taken the money and left town. Tell me that didn't hurt us in the Kenpo world.

My suggestion to you is to start teaching privately or open up a place of your own. then start doing some research on real Kenpo Organizations that can really help you. Affiliate with true Kenpo stylist that can lead you in the right direction and ones that can help you get promoted. BUT BE EXTREMELY CAREFUL ABOUT WHO YOU ASSOCIATE WITH. Their are some real frauds out there. You can be tested by legimate Kenpo stylist. But you will have to sit before a panel in order to do it. And if you are a 1st degree and they promote you to a 6th degree. You know something is truly wrong with that. What state do you live in?

Totally true - there are a lot of organizations out there, and most are willing to part with some paper to get some cash. There's one that has the gall to essentially post a menu with Grades and dollar amounts, and then a separate 'bonus menu' for the assignation of titles. The kicker is, this kempo organization is run by a guy who didn't even study kempo, just some other arts which he mixed together and called the result kempo. In one case, he had a 'state rep' sign on as a 5th dan, and then four months later, the same fellow is listed as promoted to 7th dan. What gives? The 'dan of the month club'? I guess it doesn't matter much when you are on the mat, you can either do it or you can't.

 

[expressdog01]

Jeff speakman??????????

 

[Doc]

Jeff speakman??????????

:ultracool

 

[Karazenpo]

Doc and Lotus,

You guys are right on the money. Back in the day, I can remember when the late Prof. Cerio had an organization called NCIMMA. An excellent organization that tried to bring all Kenpo stylist together for networking etc. But look what happen. People started sending in phoney certificates as part of the membership package. Prof. Cerio would send them a affiliate certificate showing membership to that bogus ranking certificate. Next thing you know. These people was running around saying they were ranked and in fact had trained with Prof. Cerio. What a lie. Most of them had never even met the man. Prof. Cerio caught to what was happening an closed the organization down. Those people made it bad for alot of us for a long time. I bet some of them still use those certificates to try to pull to woll over some peoples eyes. Those are the same guys that only have pictures of themselves hanging on their walls of their Dojo. No student pictures anywhere.

Thanks very much for your input.

Hi Todd, I was with Prof. Cerio at that time. It wasn't that phony certificates of rank were being processed, for he used to check them out. I was with him in Warwick once when he had me look at an application and certificate and then put them in his 'circular file', lol, not to mention, most of the membership was made up from either his schools or offshoot schools where he recognized the instructors, such as the Villari group, then there were some others from non-kenpo schools and organizations. If one or a few 'slipped' past him, (anything is possible), I never heard of it. The problem, as you had mentioned, was this: Say someone sent him a legitimate dan ranking certificate from Fred Villari's studios. He approves it and on the recommendation of the instructor, issues him a membership certificate 'of that rank', not a rank promotion of any sort. Later, as you stated Todd, this individual would display the certficate in his school and/or in advertising, claiming rank promotion and being a private student of the Professor's. So, in fustration and disgust, he disolved NCIMAA. It's was really too bad but many of us could see it coming the way some martial artists abuse things.

 

[tmonis]

Hi Todd, I was with Prof. Cerio at that time. It wasn't that phony certificates of rank were being processed, for he used to check them out. I was with him in Warwick once when he had me look at an application and certificate and then put them in his 'circular file', lol, not to mention, most of the membership was made up from either his schools or offshoot schools where he recognized the instructors, such as the Villari group, then there were some others from non-kenpo schools and organizations. If one or a few 'slipped' past him, (anything is possible), I never heard of it. The problem, as you had mentioned, was this: Say someone sent him a legitimate dan ranking certificate from Fred Villari's studios. He approves it and on the recommendation of the instructor, issues him a membership certificate 'of that rank', not a rank promotion of any sort. Later, as you stated Todd, this individual would display the certficate in his school and/or in advertising, claiming rank promotion and being a private student of the Professor's. So, in fustration and disgust, he disolved NCIMAA. It's was really too bad but many of us could see it coming the way some martial artists abuse things.

Joe,

You are extremely right with your posting. Prof. Cerio was a very honorable man and I know he would not purposely do anything to hurt Kenpo in any way shape or form. However as you stated, A few did get by and man did they use that to their advantage. According to the ones that have them. Prof. Cerio would never had enough time in the day to train all of his private students that claimed they had trained with him. I saw and called a person out on one the other day. Posted all over his website was a certificate of rank from NCIMMA. This gentleman said he had privately trained with Prof. Cerio back in the day. When it came down to it. He didn't even know where he lived much less knew anything about Prof. Cerio. That is my point. Fraud in the arts. People claiming to be what they aren't simply because they saw a GM at seminar that they went to. Now all of a sudden they are a private student of that GM. Or better yet they get a picture taken with that GM and now they are the best of friends. It kills me. Joe you I have been in Kenpo a long time.
You have to admit, not just in Kenpo either, they are out there making a bad name for us all. But please tell me how do go from 1st in 1994 to 9th in 2003?
I don't think that is right do you? Something is wrong with that.

I looked forward to your call this weekend.

Todd

 

[Karazenpo]

Joe,

You are extremely right with your posting. Prof. Cerio was a very honorable man and I know he would not purposely do anything to hurt Kenpo in any way shape or form. However as you stated, A few did get by and man did they use that to their advantage. According to the ones that have them. Prof. Cerio would never had enough time in the day to train all of his private students that claimed they had trained with him. I saw and called a person out on one the other day. Posted all over his website was a certificate of rank from NCIMMA. This gentleman said he had privately trained with Prof. Cerio back in the day. When it came down to it. He didn't even know where he lived much less knew anything about Prof. Cerio. That is my point. Fraud in the arts. People claiming to be what they aren't simply because they saw a GM at seminar that they went to. Now all of a sudden they are a private student of that GM. Or better yet they get a picture taken with that GM and now they are the best of friends. It kills me. Joe you I have been in Kenpo a long time.
You have to admit, not just in Kenpo either, they are out there making a bad name for us all. But please tell me how do go from 1st in 1994 to 9th in 2003?
I don't think that is right do you? Something is wrong with that.

I looked forward to your call this weekend.

Todd

Todd, I'll give you call now, sorry I didn't get back to you this weekend but I worked and we got real busy. Joe

 

[Matt]

You have to admit, not just in Kenpo either, they are out there making a bad name for us all. But please tell me how do go from 1st in 1994 to 9th in 2003?
I don't think that is right do you? Something is wrong with that.

I looked forward to your call this weekend.

Todd

I've seen someone go from brown belt in 2000 to 9th dan. Rank really has pretty much achieved pointlessness in Kempo/kenpo.

Matt

 

[tmonis]

I've seen someone go from brown belt in 2000 to 9th dan. Rank really has pretty much achieved pointlessness in Kempo/kenpo.

Matt

Matt,

That is a true shame. I bet that brown is just as proud as he can be. More than likely thinks there is nothing wrong with that either. Because his instructor or who ever promoted him said it was ok. And whar a false sense of security. Does he really posses the experience of a 9th Dan? I think not. :idunno:

 

[tshadowchaser]

unfortunately it happens in many arts. A senior black belt will for whatever reason give someone a high rank when they should still be a first degree. Sometimes it is for money, sometimes because they are family friends, somtimes for (who knows what ). That paper says that you are a certian rank and unfortunaately they are out there. To bad none of them say honorary or in your own eyes only

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

There is only one workable solution to this whole issue of unwarranted self-promotions.

IT IS TIME TO PROMOTE THE KENPO SENIORS!!!

Please see this thread: http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8067

 

[M.C. Busman]

Fraud actually refers to intentionally misleading a person generally for profit. I don't know if just claiming high rank would qualify this since there is no real national standard from org to org. If a fellow is lying about his rank, seniority, or how/who promoted him, and taking your dollar$ to promote you, you ~may~ be a direct victim of fraud. "Phony" or "Poser" might be better terms for what we are discussing here.

If it makes y'all fell any better, Okinawa kenpo & karate have been having a similar problem for at least the last 20 or so years. W/ certain Okinawans, the problem seems to be that they will promote anyone who has the money and/or offers to publicize the system's name. The sad thing is that many of these are legit "old head" masters who earned their rank, have the skill...and are selling out their legit students and the name of the school to hit it big. This is A LOT more common than many Okinawan practitioners would like to admit.

Here in the USA a lesser form of this might be "honorary" black belts--which at least use "honorary" in the title to suggest the recipient doesn't necessarily have the skills to match the "honor". The world over it has become common practice for people to give out high ranks to their buddies, regardless of how unqualified in the actual system the recipient is. So now we're not just dealing with a claim to high dan rank...but often guys who have anywhere from four to ten dan from 4th to 10th.

The way to figure it out in any art is to ask the individual how much time they studied 1. In the exact art the certificate names, and 2. how long they studied & with whom. Usually that gives a fairly clear picture of the individual's actual experience. Of course, I'm assuming you're going to get the truth when you ask


Stay Safe,

M.C. Busman

 

[James Kovacich]

:ultracool

So is Speakmans name being associated with the word fraud? I know he spoke highly of you and achknowleged training under you. He had good technique when I saw him so if you are good enough to teach him then I respectfully bow down. I did not like the Kenpo footwork though, it was like blending " a more modern style" hand technique with "old style" footwork. No disrespect intended!

Should he of approached the Kenpo seniors?

He did a seminar for Hanshi that I attended. He was not happy with the Kenpo world. I think his choice of testing under a board of high ranks was appropriate for "him." He said he was testing for 7th. I did not know of a 9th being awarded or if it's even true.

Did Ed Parker promote anyone to 10th? If not, then today's 10'ths are in "their own" systems and that is where I beleive Jeff is headed. I don't know him like you do or even close. He's just a special person to someone that is special to me. I'm just surprised about the talk about him. Thats part of the reason he's the way he is.

 

[Doc]

So is Speakmans name being associated with the word fraud? I know he spoke highly of you and achknowleged training under you. He had good technique when I saw him so if you are good enough to teach him then I respectfully bow down. I did not like the Kenpo footwork though, it was like blending " a more modern style" hand technique with "old style" footwork. No disrespect intended!

Should he of approached the Kenpo seniors?

He did a seminar for Hanshi that I attended. He was not happy with the Kenpo world. I think his choice of testing under a board of high ranks was appropriate for "him." He said he was testing for 7th. I did not know of a 9th being awarded or if it's even true.

Did Ed Parker promote anyone to 10th? If not, then today's 10'ths are in "their own" systems and that is where I beleive Jeff is headed. I don't know him like you do or even close. He's just a special person to someone that is special to me. I'm just surprised about the talk about him. Thats part of the reason he's the way he is.

:supcool:

 

[tmonis]

So is Speakmans name being associated with the word fraud? I know he spoke highly of you and achknowleged training under you. He had good technique when I saw him so if you are good enough to teach him then I respectfully bow down. I did not like the Kenpo footwork though, it was like blending " a more modern style" hand technique with "old style" footwork. No disrespect intended!

Should he of approached the Kenpo seniors?

He did a seminar for Hanshi that I attended. He was not happy with the Kenpo world. I think his choice of testing under a board of high ranks was appropriate for "him." He said he was testing for 7th. I did not know of a 9th being awarded or if it's even true.

Did Ed Parker promote anyone to 10th? If not, then today's 10'ths are in "their own" systems and that is where I beleive Jeff is headed. I don't know him like you do or even close. He's just a special person to someone that is special to me. I'm just surprised about the talk about him. Thats part of the reason he's the way he is.

Akja,

I started this post and was not speaking about Speakman. I really did not mention anyones name. Just wanted to know how everyone felt about how fast people are being promoted. I did not mention any names because I really am not worried about the person as much as I am the practice of promoting or ranking un deserved people.

Thanks for your input.

Todd

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Um, actually all promotions above 5th degree (16 technique curriculum) or even 3rd degree (24 technique) are recognitions of time in the art and service. Therefore, they are somewhat honorary, partly ceremonial, and not necessarily skill based.

So, who really cares?

Regardless of what rank an instructor wears, you have to ask yourself a few questions:
Do they know what they are doing?
Can they teach what they know?
Can they teach YOU what YOU need/want to learn?
Will you ENJOY learning from them?

My instructor never wore any red on his Black Belt. He was "jumped" from 3rd Degree to 7th degree. He appreciated the recognition of his accomplishments, but continued to wear a plain Black Belt with no red on it. I recently took all the red off my Black Belt.

Really, when you think about it, the Black Belt is like a college diploma. If you learned your lessons well, nobody asks about your GPA and some won't even care where you got your diploma. I've got an MBA, but nobody asks me about my GPA or where I got my degree...they just ask me what decisions am I going to make today. You should treat your Kenpo the same way.

 

[jfarnsworth]

There is only one workable solution to this whole issue of unwarranted self-promotions.

IT IS TIME TO PROMOTE THE KENPO SENIORS!!!

Please see this thread: http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8067

Oh no! Not that thread again

artyon:

 

[Doc]

Um, actually all promotions above 5th degree (16 technique curriculum) or even 3rd degree (24 technique) are recognitions of time in the art and service. Therefore, they are somewhat honorary, partly ceremonial, and not necessarily skill based.

So, who really cares?

Regardless of what rank an instructor wears, you have to ask yourself a few questions:
Do they know what they are doing?
Can they teach what they know?
Can they teach YOU what YOU need/want to learn?
Will you ENJOY learning from them?

My instructor never wore any red on his Black Belt. He was "jumped" from 3rd Degree to 7th degree. He appreciated the recognition of his accomplishments, but continued to wear a plain Black Belt with no red on it. I recently took all the red off my Black Belt.

Really, when you think about it, the Black Belt is like a college diploma. If you learned your lessons well, nobody asks about your GPA and some won't even care where you got your diploma. I've got an MBA, but nobody asks me about my GPA or where I got my degree...they just ask me what decisions am I going to make today. You should treat your Kenpo the same way.

One of the things that we have done to remove any rank pressure is, "All black belt numerical ranks are honorary or emeritus. No exceptions. The real document in our curriculum that is prized is a "Teaching Credential." No credential - no teach - no exceptions. The teaching credential has various levels covering varying aspects of the curriculum. The higher the level, the greater the time envolved. No exceptions. Every level at every rank has a "minimum time requirement" that is broken down into "classroom hours." Not weeks, months, or years, but actual hours in the classroom taking instruction. When the hourly requirement is completed, than a student is eligible to petition to take an advancement test. Whether or not his petition is accepted, is up to the testing and credentials committe.

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

One of the things that we have done to remove any rank pressure is, "All black belt numerical ranks are honorary or emeritus. No exceptions. The real document in our curriculum that is prized is a "Teaching Credential." No credential - no teach - no exceptions. The teaching credential has various levels covering varying aspects of the curriculum. The higher the level, the greater the time envolved. No exceptions. Every level at every rank has a "minimum time requirement" that is broken down into "classroom hours." Not weeks, months, or years, but actual hours in the classroom taking instruction. When the hourly requirement is completed, than a student is eligible to petition to take an advancement test. Whether or not his petition is accepted, is up to the testing and credentials committe.

Bravo!