First two knuckle punch.

[seasoned]

With the use of protective gear, as in gloves, how many of you still emphasize striking with the first two knuckles in practice. With the emphasis on sparring, and the use of sparring gloves because of safety, is this concept lost in these modern times.

 

[phfman]

With the use of protective gear, as in gloves, how many of you still emphasize striking with the first two knuckles in practice. With the emphasis on sparring, and the use of sparring gloves because of safety, is this concept lost in these modern times.

Remember, you don't wear protective gear in real situations. I think continuing to train for reality is always sensible. I've seen too many martial artist get lazy and/or sloppy when wearing protective gear because the actual threat is absent.
Guro/Sifu John G. Oliver
United States Wan Chuan Do Association

 

[Thesemindz]

This is precisely why I train bare knuckle and encourage my students to learn how to strike bare knuckle. Getting used to striking the bag, or other students, with gloves on encourages poor weapon structure by removing the immediate results of it. If you don't have to focus on hitting with the proper part of the weapon, any weapon, then over time you lose that focus. I would only advocate the use of gloves when doing very intense drills with heavy contact, and even then I would encourage students to progress beyond the need for them.

At a beginner level, yes, I glove my students for sparring. But over time, I expect them to develop the ability to strike safely and accurately without the need for gloves. And we train that way.

If you are training for a fight where you will be wrapped and gloved, then train that way. If you are training for a fight where you will have a gun or knife, then train that way.

If you are training for a fight where you will be both empty and bare handed, then I think you should train that way.


-Rob

 

[seasoned]

This is precisely why I train bare knuckle and encourage my students to learn how to strike bare knuckle. Getting used to striking the bag, or other students, with gloves on encourages poor weapon structure by removing the immediate results of it. If you don't have to focus on hitting with the proper part of the weapon, any weapon, then over time you lose that focus. I would only advocate the use of gloves when doing very intense drills with heavy contact, and even then I would encourage students to progress beyond the need for them.

At a beginner level, yes, I glove my students for sparring. But over time, I expect them to develop the ability to strike safely and accurately without the need for gloves. And we train that way.

If you are training for a fight where you will be wrapped and gloved, then train that way. If you are training for a fight where you will have a gun or knife, then train that way.

If you are training for a fight where you will be both empty and bare handed, then I think you should train that way.


-Rob

Remember, you don't wear protective gear in real situations. I think continuing to train for reality is always sensible. I've seen too many martial artist get lazy and/or sloppy when wearing protective gear because the actual threat is absent.
Guro/Sifu John G. Oliver
United States Wan Chuan Do Association

Thank you for your reply.
I know there are a lot of Martial Artists that know this trivial point, and consider it elementary. But the fact of the matter is, unless you stress it at every class, and take it for granted, by only mentioning it in passing, the students will miss the point. I have met Martial Artists that, had no idea about this fact, and they have trained for many years. I feel that the more sport minded a DoJo (studio) is, the less adherence to proper punching technique they are. It appears by your posts that there are still a few that do stress this. :asian:

 

[searcher]

I believe that as long as you are trying to align the two bones in the hand with the bones in the forearm, you are still using the principle behind the technique. The original reason for doing the two-knuckle punch was re-inforcement of the wrist by creating a linear stack of the bones. It protected the wrists and smaller bones in the pinky.

 

[Uchinanchu]

Gloves!?...You mean, this whole time I could have been wearing gloves?!! But seriously, no, we do not use any protective gear, unless of course, we are letting the kids practice for a tournament (rules, you know).

The only protective gear that I use is a mouthpiece and a cup (not for drinking with), that's of course only whenever we do jiyukumite. Other than that, it's all about proper control and technique with contact.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Since I spar WTF style and am only allowed to aim punches to the torso, I don't wear gloves and yes, I align properly. It seems silly to wear gloves or wrap my hands when I'm punching someone wearing a big pad.

Daniel

 

[hkfuie]

The style I train is very meticulous about technique, so it has been drilled into my brain to always use correct technique. I hope I adequately pass that on.

 

[seasoned]

I have also considered the penetration factor over the years, as well as the proper striking surface of the fist. I can recall a sparring match with my Sensei, where he hit me with a well controlled upper cut. Under my chin, on the chin bone, were two raised bumps where his 2 knuckles landed. With gloves on, we have a tendency to hit with the whole fist, without realizing it. Therefore, without the gloves on, we expose out fist to injury. I was taught, and teach, that if I have gloves on, to still dig those 2 knuckles in. There is a drill I use on new students, where I will teach the punch, and demo penetration by taking the first student in line, and step down on their instep, simulating a flat fist hit, and what their reaction. After that I will bend over and place my 2 knuckles on the same spot and press, 9 time out of 10 they jump out of the way.

 

[searcher]

Hitting with the knuckles can be a problem witout proper conditioning. If you are truly conditioned you should look like the two knuckles are one giant knuckle. JMO, but I use Mas Oyama as an example.


Seasoned's comment about the knuckle imprint made me think of this.

 

[hkfuie]

Personally, I don't want a "uniknuckle"! But more power to ya!

 

[girlbug2]

I have been taught proper punching technique, but for heavy punching drills on the bag I wear gloves. This does concern me, because I fear that the gloves might be "training" me to leave my thumb loose and in the incorrect position for a real-life bare knuckle punch. Your thread has given me a lot to think about.

One question, how do you properly condition the skin on the knuckles to toughen up?

 

[seasoned]

Hitting with the knuckles can be a problem witout proper conditioning. If you are truly conditioned you should look like the two knuckles are one giant knuckle. JMO, but I use Mas Oyama as an example.


Seasoned's comment about the knuckle imprint made me think of this.

He probably got that one knuckle from all that cow punching. Everything has it’s extremes. I think conditioning and destruction are two different things, JMO.

 

[seasoned]

I have been taught proper punching technique, but for heavy punching drills on the bag I wear gloves. This does concern me, because I fear that the gloves might be "training" me to leave my thumb loose and in the incorrect position for a real-life bare knuckle punch. Your thread has given me a lot to think about.

One question, how do you properly condition the skin on the knuckles to toughen up?

In time callus will take the place of normal skin. Not so good for evening attire, but you can sure hit hard .

Also the thumb is used as a stabilizer against the index finger. So you are right, gloves may cause a loose thumb.

 

[punisher73]

I have been taught proper punching technique, but for heavy punching drills on the bag I wear gloves. This does concern me, because I fear that the gloves might be "training" me to leave my thumb loose and in the incorrect position for a real-life bare knuckle punch. Your thread has given me a lot to think about.

One question, how do you properly condition the skin on the knuckles to toughen up?

Do knuckle pushups. In many traditional schools they did not start you on the makiwara or hitting sand bags until you had gotten to a certain level of conditioning through the knuckle pushups.

Also, get a pair of Century MMA gloves to wear while hitting the heavy bag. You can still make a tight fist and can still hit with just the two big knuckles. I don't recommend "boxing gloves" at all because it doesn't allow for a proper tight fist as if you did not have the glove on.

 

[Zero]

In my goju ryu club there is a heavy emphasis on correct alignment and striking with the two knuckles. However, given that we compete also in MMA and muay thai tournaments (there is a senior sensei who trains a lot of freestyle fighting alongside the traditional classes) we do train in sparring, pads and heavy bag a lot with both boxing gloves and mma gloves.

There is also a time in most fights for different boxing/fist techniques and I find that with hooks, the angle of strike and alignment of the arm and wrist is not conducive for focusing on a front knuckle strike - although these are the first two knuckles that generally make contact anyway. Although this depends on whether you are executing a hook with a vertical or parallel fist. I find this also applies to a degree to upper cuts into the body.

I find when using mma or half gloves or bare fist that it is easy to stay to form, however when using boxing gloves, just due to the form and shape of the gloves themselves my punches are more of a full fist or at least the 3 leading knuckles. But then in a tournament with boxing gloves you use the gloves to the effect and benefit they are there for.

I guess there is a risk between alternating gloves and strike types that in a bare fist confrontaiton you could throw a sloppy punch and damage either wrist or knuckles. But my original and traditional goju training has the alignment principal pretty well ingrained in me.

 

[Zero]

Oh, I also wanted to say for those asking about conditioning that my experience is same as Punisers regarding commencing with knuckle push ups and then makiwara.

For strengthening the wrists, as important as conditioned knuckles, more so if you're competing with gloves, sit on a bench and rest your forearms on your knees, hold a barbell in both hands, 10 or 20kg barbell, and do sets of exercises: flexing your wrists up 10 times, down 10 times and full range 10 times, 3 sets of this.

For rotational and side of wrist strength/stability, rest your forearm on a bench/ chair when kneeling, hold a shortish bar/pole or say a 5 or 10kg dumbell in your hand (one hand at a time) and rotate your wrist all the way as far as it can go to the left and then right. Then do the other wrist. Again, two or three sets of 10 reps each. You may want to hold your forearm with your free hand to make sure the rotation is primarily through the wrist.

You can also do all of the above standing if no bench or chair to hand.

Otherwise, scrap all of the above and just ditch your girlfriend for 3 months; I'm sure single chaps have stronger wrists!!