The Myth of Sparring.

[Zepp]

Originally posted by Technopunk
Lets assume I spar with someone, and do not limit my attacks to ONLY punching/kicking which, in our art (at least where I am at now) are not the main way of damaging your opponent, they are only "softening" and distraction techniques... as in "As you focus on my punch to your face, you fail to notice I am breaking your anke and knee..." (WAY oversimplified, but ok, you get the idea)

Ok... so as I was saying... we spar. I see three possible outcomes.

1) I execute a technique properly, and break your arm and wrist, but got to spar.
2) I fake execution and dont "commit" to the move, and you continue to fight and beat me down because you think my move "Didnt work on me" even tho I was only stopping it so as not to break your arm and wrist.
3) I refrain from using any of our damaging techniques and only strike and kick. Am I really practicing my art then?

The only way "Sparring" would work in my art (again, in my opinion, at my level) is if I was doing it with someone who studies the same art, and is of sufficiant higher level to recognize the techniques I am attempting to use, and then "fakes" reaction to my uncommited attacks as if they were fully executed, ala Scenario 2 above.

Some form of sparring is still better than nothing at all. To reply to Scenario #3, yes you would still be practicing your art. Maybe not to your full potential, but that's not really possible in any art without harming your partner. An important part of all martial arts, Ninpo included, is learning control. Sparring helps you develop this as well.

Scenario #2 works just fine if you're sparring with someone you train with regularly in the same style. You can also always spar with submission rules. (When the joint lock gets to be too much for someone, they tap the ground or their body.)

Ok, I take back that statement about it not being a martial art without sparring. But without sparring in some form, the self-defense aspect of any art is purely theoretical.

 

[Skummer]

Given some of the posts on this thread, I started to wonder about something...

If you practice a style that uses dangerous techniques, that is, too dangerous to do full on sparring with, are you really learning how to apply these techniques on a fully resisting opponent?

Has anyone here used a technique that they've never sparred with, such as a joint destruction, in a real, full-contact fight?

It would be my guess that modifying your techniques to make them safe enough to use in full on sparring (ala judo) would teach you more about how to apply them in a real combative situation.

 

[Zepp]

Originally posted by Skummer
Has anyone here used a technique that they've never sparred with, such as a joint destruction, in a real, full-contact fight?

Yes. Gouging of certain bodily orifices for one. (See my post on on the Bullies thread in the General Self-Defense forum.)

Originally posted by Skummer
It would be my guess that modifying your techniques to make them safe enough to use in full on sparring (ala judo) would teach you more about how to apply them in a real combative situation.

I agree. That applies to strikes and destructive blocks too, not just to joint locks. A strike to a vital area (such as the throat) can be thrown at full power, with full extension of the limb, but you can adjust the distance between your body and your partner's body so that it stops just short of its target. You just have to be sparring with a partner who understands what you're doing. A destructive block can also be adjusted slightly for your partner's safety, such as turning your hand during a knife hand block so that the back of your hand hits their wrist instead of the knife edge.

These are just a couple examples.

 

[satans.barber]

Originally posted by Skummer
Given some of the posts on this thread, I started to wonder about something...

If you practice a style that uses dangerous techniques, that is, too dangerous to do full on sparring with, are you really learning how to apply these techniques on a fully resisting opponent?

Has anyone here used a technique that they've never sparred with, such as a joint destruction, in a real, full-contact fight?

It would be my guess that modifying your techniques to make them safe enough to use in full on sparring (ala judo) would teach you more about how to apply them in a real combative situation.

What do you suggest as a remedy to this?

I've thought about this quite a lot in the past, and as far as I can see there isn't one. The only solution would be to actually break your training partner's bones for example, on purpose, which isn't acceptable.

I think people just need to trust in their training and hope that they can adapt it or take it to completion if they ever are really attacked.

Ian.

 

[Nightingale]

Personally, I've found sparring to be extraordinarily helpful.

1. It teaches you what to do when someone's fist is flying at your face: REACT. do something, even if it is just to duck.

2. It gets you used to the feeling of someone's fist flying at your face, so you don't freeze up when it actually happens. You know to move.

3. It helps the folks who are afraid of getting hurt. Its a non-threatening environment that helps you work on reaction.

4. It helps the women who are afraid of hitting.


Is it all the preparation you'd need for a street fight: HELL NO!

Its a tool, to be used in conjunction with many other tools. That's all.

 

[Cryozombie]

Can someone Define Sparring and Randori... because a lot of the stuff you guys list as Sparring or benefits of Sparring we do in Randori...

Is my confusion just a mixup of terms?

 

[Marginal]

I was under the impression that randori was typically used in active practice in grappling arts while sparring was used to describe active practice of technique in striking arts. Not a whole lotta difference outside of that.

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Has anyone here read either "Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu Theory and Technique" by Renzo and Royler Gracie or "Mastering Ju Jitsu" by Renzo Gracie? In both of those books, there are about three pages which should really be read by EVERY martial artist regardless of whether they want to grapple or not. Those pages are the ones discussing the "fundamental dilema of martial arts training"

The premise is that there are two types of martial arts training methods:

1) The Aiki Jujitsu and Traditional Martial Arts method is to learn a large repertoire of deadly and dangerous techniques. The techniques are so dangerous they must be practiced with control, without actually hitting targets, and/or with a cooperating partner in order to avoid frequent serious injury. The advantage of this training method is that the student learns movements that could quickly and decisively end a fight. The disadvantage is that the student never actually executes the movements properly in a training environment. Examples are eye-strikes, gouges, bone-breaking strikes, throat strikes.

2) The Judo, BJJ and Boxing method is to limit the techniques to those that can be executed full-speed and full-power against a resisting partner. The advantage is that by eliminating dangerous and deadly techniques, the student can spar for much longer periods without injury and can practice their techniques in a much more realistic manner against a fully resisting partner. The disadvantage is that the student does not include those dangerous strikes in their repertoire and may not be prepared to defend against them.

I think this analysis can teach us much about our training and about how we determine what works and what doesn't

 

[LegendaryWarrior]

In response to "The Myth of Sparring". There is nothing wrong with sparring like a boxer or sparring in general. While it is true that most martial techniques can not be of any use while wearing taping and padding, sparring is not only a good way to livin' things up a bit, but it also help you as an instructor weed out those who are really committed to the art you teach. Sparring (also) help you (the teacher) to redesign and manipulate the skills in which you have taught you students. For example, Bruce Lee's JKD does this in thier teachings by getting rid of the unuseful and using what can be used.
Not every technique in every martial art can be used in a real fight or sparring. It is important to be flexible. To learn to adapt to every situation with the greatest of ease (when possible). Another example is the art myself and a few good fighters I came across over the years developed called JSD (Jesuit Self Defense). This style was specifically based on karate and other styles like ninjitsu, greco roman wrestling, kung-fu, and tai chi chuan (the main blends in the system). I trained with these fellows and learned what I could. The latest fighting form included is boxing (which is being taught to me by a golden gloves participant). Therefore, I will be sparring just like a boxer.
My whole point is that open mindedness is the best thing for anyone who is serious about his/her martial arts training. Despite what some money taking teachers are out for.

 

[KennethKu]

Originally posted by hapki-bujutsu .....
Do you know why boxers wear gloves? Not to protect the opponent's head, because it does just the opposite. The gloves, along with the tape that goes on the hands first, keep the tiny bones in the hands from getting broken. That is a good strategy for boxing as a sport, because fighters who are less likely to break their hands are more likely to get knock outs. The public loves spectacular knock outs! BUT - practicing fighting with your hands protected leads you to fight in real life as if your hands are protected. You launch one of those boxing style head punches on the street with bare knuckles and you are probably finished.

May be you should spar bareknuckles then? Please report back to let us know how it goes then.

 

[Ceicei]

Originally posted by Technopunk
Can someone Define Sparring and Randori... because a lot of the stuff you guys list as Sparring or benefits of Sparring we do in Randori...

Is my confusion just a mixup of terms?

Technopunk,

Ah yes. It is a difference of terms.

Randori is generally used by grappling or non-striking arts [judo, jujitsu, aikido, etc.] and sparring is used by the striking arts [taekwondo, kenpo, etc.] to accomplish the same thing: Two people working together (either cooperating or resisting) in a controlled environment to practice certain movements.

- Ceicei

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

If you don't spar, how do you know if you can make even a limited part of your art work against a RESISTING oponent?

If you don't spar, you are only pretending to do martial arts.

 

[Kempo Guy]

A lot of the sparring I've seen is a game of tag... very little intent, imho.

For me "sparring" is part of the training process, not a means to an end. It is a way to train your fear reactivity, i.e. how to cope with your flinch reflex and adrenal response. This type of training (again imho) should be done at various speeds, such as slow movement sparring (without changing physics, i.e. track someones head by changing your force vector in the middle of your strike, which would be impossible at full speed); to full contact training wearing something like Tony Blauer's 'High Gear'.

Again, this type of training should not replace your other training (including solo forms training), but should be an important aspect of your training.

If you don't spar, you are only pretending to do martial arts.

I disagree. In many (if not most) traditional Japanese sword arts (I am speaking of koryu arts, i.e. old school arts pre meiji restoration) sparring was not part of their regular training. Their training consisted almost entirely of kata training, whether done solo or with a partner. However, once at an advanced level the teacher would often switch movements of the kata mid-stream when teaching their students. Keep in mind these kata were performed with wooden bokken at full speed and intent, in order to teach their students to switch techniques without thinking. This was sometimes referred to as 'oyo waza'.
In any event, I wouldn't hesitate to call these practitioners "martial artists".

KG

 

[fringe_dweller]

Originally posted by LegendaryWarrior
it also help you as an instructor weed out those who are really committed to the art you teach

Don't know that I agree with this... Most people enjoy sparring. I would think that making your class work basics for a month would find out who was serious and who was not.

Respectfully

 

[Makalakumu]

When I was a gup, I sparred regularly and acheived some success in tournament fighting. I won two regional tournaments and was greatly impressed by the accolades and respect from my peers. During that time, I also worked as a security guard where physical confrontations were a regular part of my job. I can tell you without a doubt that my ability to deal with these physical confrontations was inversely proportional to my ability with sparring. The more I sparred, the less I was able to handle a real aggressor.

Why? Instinct. Sparring trains your instincts to do certain techniques that do not harm your opponent. Plain and simple - otherwise the ranks of martial artists would be greatly diminished. My decision, not to spar as much. Once a month is my personal guideline.

I still teach sparring though. I tell my students that it is fun. It will teach them how to move quickly and to overcome any fear of striking. It will teach them how to take a strike. And, yes, my students look horrible when they spar - coming from a person who has won tournaments - and this is okay with me. Hell, I don't have the skill I used to have. But it IS a game. To get good you need to practice. I tell them that if they want to train for tournaments, fine, I will train you, but remember the more you train these techniques the more likely they will come out in a real confrontation.

As far as sparring and randori goes, I believe there is a difference. Sparring is a game played to score points. Randori is a partially random situation created by the instructor in order to practice techniques in varying degrees of fight time. In my honest opinion randori is more important to self defense then sparring, consequently, we do randori almost every class.

In closing, I would like to state that sparring and randori are both important to training. They are a substitute for real fighting though. Saying this, I advise caution with sparring. A good street fighter will nearly always take the sparring champ to the cleaners because of instinct. Ask yourself, what techniques do you want in your instinctual repetoire? And, please remember, there is more to a martial artist then their ability to fight.

upnorthkyosa

 

[Marginal]

Does beg the question,

Rather than nodding sagely and saying sparring doesn't help you in a fight, why not simply improve the sparring in class so that it better approximates a real fight?

Why lock yourself in a tradition that you consider useless?

 

[Ceicei]

Originally posted by upnorthkyosa
As far as sparring and randori goes, I believe there is a difference. Sparring is a game played to score points. Randori is a partially random situation created by the instructor in order to practice techniques in varying degrees of fight time. In my honest opinion randori is more important to self defense then sparring, consequently, we do randori almost every class.

Point sparring, the method you talked about, may not serve too much towards self defense.

I prefer freestyle sparring that allows me to try out short techniques quickly under stress, the ability to learn to think fast, adjust strikes/counter strikes and kicks, and find out what works or doesn't work. Some techniques look fancy, but may fail when put under duress with free style sparring.

Ask yourself, what techniques do you want in your instinctual repetoire? And, please remember, there is more to a martial artist then their ability to fight.

I agree with you, there is more to being a martial artist than just the ability to fight. Some people lose sight of that.

- Ceicei

 

[Gotkenpo?]

i took a look at that guys website...what a ****ing joke he is.

 

[tshadowchaser]

I like to see my student spar once in a while .
I'm able to see i their techniques are improveing and if they are finding new avenues to use what I shoe them, or if thy only fall into old habits.
Sparring against more than one opponet helps keep it real at times.

 

[chaosomega]

It is, after all, impossible to execute most martial arts techniques with your hands taped into fists and covered by padded gloves.

Try wearing grappling gloves instead. They provide grasping and finger mobility while still retaining an effective amout of padding. DUH!!!