The Myth of Sparring.

[hapki-bujutsu]

I found this on a wed site. If you disagree with this could you give me
specifics on why. If you do agree is there any reasons not listed that you think goes along. thanks!!


The Myth of Sparring.









Whenever I see sparring in a traditional martial arts school, I want to yell, "STOP THE INSANITY!" What they call sparring is having two students (often with wildly different skill levels) put on boxing gloves and punch each other. Pro boxers do something like this, since it is similar to their (my) sport, but I have NO IDEA what those martial arts instructors are trying to accomplish. It is, after all, impossible to execute most martial arts techniques with your hands taped into fists and covered by padded gloves. When you visit your neighborhood self defense school and see sparring, one of three things is happening:

1) The instructor didn't prepare a lesson for that night and wishes to create the illusion of education while actually killing time.

2) He REALLY, REALLY doesn't like one of those students.

3) He doesn't realize he's not teaching street self defense, which is the scariest of the three.

Do you know why boxers wear gloves? Not to protect the opponent's head, because it does just the opposite. The gloves, along with the tape that goes on the hands first, keep the tiny bones in the hands from getting broken. That is a good strategy for boxing as a sport, because fighters who are less likely to break their hands are more likely to get knock outs. The public loves spectacular knock outs! BUT - practicing fighting with your hands protected leads you to fight in real life as if your hands are protected. You launch one of those boxing style head punches on the street with bare knuckles and you are probably finished.

If you're not training to box, don't bother training like a boxer. By the way, you can't really spar with open hand martial arts techniques anyway. The techniques I teach have no tournament usefulness. They are not about scoring points or impressing judges. They are, almost without exception, illegal in full contact martial arts competition. They are for rendering an attacker UNABLE to continue. Please pay attention to this point: ANY SELF DEFENSE STYLE YOU CAN SPAR WITH IS A GAME or is INEFFECTIVE!

 

[Robbo]

Oh well,

Here we go again.

Rob

 

[hapki-bujutsu]

have you seen this before? This is not my thoughts I want to make that clear. I saw it on a web site and thought it would make for a great discussion. I myself spar.

 

[tshadowchaser]

By the way, you can't really spar with open hand martial arts techniques anyway.

I tend to disagree with this syatement in general. Sparing can be done with open hands. It takes control when goin for the eyes and not drawing to much blood with the finger tips but control is part of sparring. If you are doing full contact sparring why not use a shoto, or a palm technique?
==================
As for the other parts of your post, I agree if your not a boxer ,keep the boxing equipment off.
The cloves or pads , it is thought, will let one know when contact is made so that a technique can be pulled with out full contact being made. They also give a false impression of protection (i most fully agree) . What they do is create poor techniques with sloopy hand/fist closure. IMHO

 

[Robbo]

As long as you are perfectly aware of what sparring is for and what benefits can be drived from it then it is a useful tool.

If I have a screwdriver and I try to hammer a nail into the wall I probably will throw the screwdriver away because I did not find it very useful.

If I use the screwdriver on a screw properly, then I will put the screwdriver into my toolbox knowing what it does, AND knowing what it will not do.

Rob

 

[hapki-bujutsu]

As long as you are perfectly aware of what sparring is for and what benefits can be drived from it then it is a useful tool.

If I have a screwdriver and I try to hammer a nail into the wall I probably will throw the screwdriver away because I did not find it very useful.

If I use the screwdriver on a screw properly, then I will put the screwdriver into my toolbox knowing what it does, AND knowing what it will not do.

Rob

will be using this statement. I like this. thanks.

 

[TonyM.]

I understand the sentiment. IMO sparring needs to be controled and observed so flaws can be corrected. I liken it to the way people jog around here. Easily 80% of the people I observe jogging have such poor running form that they have to be causing more physical harm than gaining aerobic benefit.
Point is if no one corrects your form during sparring you may be developing incorrect body aperatures that are extremely difficult to change after they have become habit.

 

[Ceicei]

I happen to really enjoy freestyle sparring. I've done point sparring, but it is different.

For me with freestyle sparring, it's a way of learning to do good strikes (punches, uppercuts, hooks, ridges, etc.), kicks (front, side, roundhouse, spinning kicks, etc), sweeps, and blocks.

Anything goes as far as targets are concerned.

What I like is the element of unpredictability and learning how to read what the partner may intend to do. Its learning how to think quickly on our feet, being able to do a series of strikes quickly (that may not necessarily follow the pattern of some techniques), and taking advantages of the partner's "open spaces". It also teaches us the importance of making good blocks. Proper stances that help with motion are important too.

I also like sparring against bigger/stronger partners (I am a female) and finding out what works/doesn't work on them. [So far, I'm the only female in my school who loves to spar.]

I've done sparring with and without hand gloves. I like the martial arts gloves better than the boxing gloves because the MA gloves allow me to be able to move my hands for striking.

However, with protection on, this allows both my partner and me to hit harder and use our power range.

- Ceicei

 

[Skummer]

Originally posted by hapki-bujutsu

If you're not training to box, don't bother training like a boxer. By the way, you can't really spar with open hand martial arts techniques anyway. The techniques I teach have no tournament usefulness. They are not about scoring points or impressing judges. They are, almost without exception, illegal in full contact martial arts competition. They are for rendering an attacker UNABLE to continue. Please pay attention to this point: ANY SELF DEFENSE STYLE YOU CAN SPAR WITH IS A GAME or is INEFFECTIVE!

What complete nonsense. Does anyone really believe that learning a slew of techniques that you can't practice realistically are going to work when you're attacked on the street?

It's very convenient for people to say that what they do is far too deadly to spar with in order to escape actually proving that what they do works. I'd hope most people realise this kind of attitude is nonsense.

If you have a technique you've never trained to use on a resisting opponent, chances are it won't work like it does in the theoretical practice of the dojo when you actually need it.

 

[Skummer]

What site was this tripe found on??

 

[Ceicei]

I searched google, and this is what I found:

http://www.dragonkenpo.com/sparring.htm

I believe this is the same website hapki-bujutsu may have seen. It appears to be a website for Dragon Kenpo Karate Academy.

- Ceicei

 

[Deaf]

Well everyone is entitiled to an opinion!

There are pro and cons with everything you do.

Sparring can be beneficial if the person(s) are working on how to move to avoid attacks, learning distance, timing and how to give and receive a strike. ( there are probably more that other people can list ) Another is to get the act of actually confronting another person and fighting them. All kinds of mind mojo going on there!

Now on the flip side of the coin, sparring can also give the person(s) bad habits such as pulling strikes, attitudes (mainly seen in point or sport style sparring imho) and a general sense that the person(s) can defend themselves adequately on the street (now the last point can be debatable depending on what type of sparring and what the focus of the sparring is).

These are just some of my thoughts on sparring. It is like any tool out there. If you know how to use it properly then it can and will be beneficial. If you don't know how to properly use it then it can probably cause more damage than good.

Deaf

 

[kenpo12]

Sparring is great as long as you know why you're sparring. Sparring is how you learn to control range and practice timing. We also generally spar with MA gloves or bareknuckle, it just depends.

The techniques I teach have no tournament usefulness. They are not about scoring points or impressing judges. They are, almost without exception, illegal in full contact martial arts competition. They are for rendering an attacker UNABLE to continue. Please pay attention to this point: ANY SELF DEFENSE STYLE YOU CAN SPAR WITH IS A GAME or is INEFFECTIVE!

This is just complete and udder stupidity. If you can't practice your techniques in a sparring enviroment how are you ever supposed to learn the timing and range to employ it on a resisting opponent. If you don't learn how to employ safe techniques while sparring how can you employ deadly ones? C'mon it's 2003, the martial arts mysterious bs is just silly.

 

[MA-Caver]

I'll agree with the others that Sparring is very useful and necessary when learning combative/defensive MA. Boxing sparring and MA sparring are two different birds altogether.
They both serve the same purpose however... to train the individual on what to do and what NOT to do.
With MA's you HAVE to know exactly what/where/how/when to effectively do your forms/styles/moves/techniques (WHATEVER!) on your opponent for them to have any effect at all in the real world. "Air Karate (and other MA's) isn't going to be effective for very long when you realize in a real-life situation that your opponent isn't going to obilgingly submit to your cool techinque. They're going to be moving and bla bla bla (ok I'm ranting) on an obvious point.

If you see an instructor that is just "ok lets just spar today" without any real purpose other than to "kill time" then you may want to leave the school and find a more serious instructor who has an INSTRUCTIONAL purpose for everything they do in class that given day. Or speak to the instuctor and find-out what the deal is. His answer may surprise you.

Sparring is necessary and sparring is good. I believe everything we learn in our chosen arts would be ineffective without it.

:asian:

 

[satans.barber]

Sparring is very beneficial. It's good for fitness, teaches you how to move round without falling over your own feet, gets you used to taking a few knocks, teaches you how to exploit opportunities and gets you used to defeat.

Sparring isn't the same thing as fighting, and I think you're mixing up the two.

Dictionary.com suggests:

spar

1. To fight with an opponent in a short bout or practice session, as in boxing or the martial arts.

2. To make boxing or fighting motions without hitting one's opponent.

3. To bandy words about in argument; dispute.

4. To fight by striking with the feet and spurs. Used of gamecocks.

fight

1. To attempt to harm or gain power over an adversary by blows or with weapons. Sports.

2. To engage in boxing or wrestling.

3. To engage in a quarrel; argue: They are always fighting about money.

4. To strive vigorously and resolutely: fought against graft; fighting for her rights.


Ian.

 

[Zepp]

Sparring has it's limits, and it's important that an instructor tells his students what those limits are. That being said, if it doesn't include sparring, it's not a martial art, and it most definitely doesn't teach you reasonable self-defense.

ANY SELF DEFENSE STYLE YOU CAN SPAR WITH IS A GAME or is INEFFECTIVE!

This statement screams "I run a McDojo."

 

[Mark L]

Originally posted by hapki-bujutsu


You launch one of those boxing style head punches on the street with bare knuckles and you are probably finished.

If you're not training to box, don't bother training like a boxer. By the way, you can't really spar with open hand martial arts techniques anyway.

A few thoughts on this. I spar, and enjoy it immensely. I wear gloves that leave my fingers free to strike open handed if I want, or more likely, grab on. We occassionally spar without gloves, and it does feel different. I use gloves not to protect my hands but to protect my opponent, and they do the same. So will I be finished if I punch somebody in the head without protection? I don't know, but I bang the heavy bag pretty damn hard without gloves or foot pads and it doesn't incapacitate me at all.

Sparring teaches me tactics, defense, attack/counter attack, etc. We go about half power to the head and pretty strong to the body. So I know what some contact feels like (occassionally i get to feel what a lot of contact feels like ), and the bag teaches me to apply power to hard things (although admittedly not hard like a skull).

Maybe I'm not as hardcore as some, but I do this for fun as well as for fitness and SD training. I need to go to work every day. I want to be able do things with my family, type on the keyboard, breath through my nose, see out of both eyes, chew steak without dentures, walk without a limp, etc. I can't afford, nor do I wish, to get busted up three times a week so I can convince myself I can throw hard and take a shot on the street.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Sparring is important. Each sparring session should have a specific purpose. We need to take away the extreem contact to work on controling the distance, good stances, good foot maneuvers, and proper form. Contact should be added but taken away once the students begin to slop. This might take forever, but what else you got going on?

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

That was one of the stupidest articles I've ever read! Everyone HAS to spar to develop effective timing, blocking/evading, distance control, etc.

There is even worse stuff on that website. Did you look at the demo? http://www.dragonkenpo.com/tech.htm

Female defender deflects an overhead knife attack, then without any control of the weapon, ...

"She shuffles (one step) straight ahead, gripping attacker's chin with right hand and base of skull with left hand, ending up behind the attacker. Quickly and forcefully she pulls straight back with her right hand while stabilizing the head with her left hand, snapping the attacker's neck around probably breaking it. She immediately follows up with a rear leg thrust kick to the lower spine."

This is really stupid. This won't break the attacker's neck! Probably won't even hurt! All it will do is turn the attacker around so he is facing you--still holding his knife. Unbelievable.

 

[Cryozombie]

Originally posted by Zepp
Sparring has it's limits, and it's important that an instructor tells his students what those limits are. That being said, if it doesn't include sparring, it's not a martial art,

So my Ninpo is not a martial art because we do not spar?

I agree the original post was stupid and arrogant, but let me counter some of the above arguments with this scenario. Please forgive my opinion, as I am still fairly early in my training, and this is based on my opinions of the art I am learning and the techniques I know...

Lets assume I spar with someone, and do not limit my attacks to ONLY punching/kicking which, in our art (at least where I am at now) are not the main way of damaging your opponent, they are only "softening" and distraction techniques... as in "As you focus on my punch to your face, you fail to notice I am breaking your anke and knee..." (WAY oversimplified, but ok, you get the idea)

Ok... so as I was saying... we spar. I see three possible outcomes.

1) I execute a technique properly, and break your arm and wrist, but got to spar.
2) I fake execution and dont "commit" to the move, and you continue to fight and beat me down because you think my move "Didnt work on me" even tho I was only stopping it so as not to break your arm and wrist.
3) I refrain from using any of our damaging techniques and only strike and kick. Am I really practicing my art then?

The only way "Sparring" would work in my art (again, in my opinion, at my level) is if I was doing it with someone who studies the same art, and is of sufficiant higher level to recognize the techniques I am attempting to use, and then "fakes" reaction to my uncommited attacks as if they were fully executed, ala Scenario 2 above.

And No, I am not saying "My art is too deadly to spar with" I just dont feel that sparring would be an effective tool for me to learn my art. It limits my toolbox too much I think. Most of the "You need to learn how to react to a puch or kick" things you guys said, an the distancing and footwork stuff that TOD mentioned above, is incorporated into our Randori excercises...

I think that for many arts, Randori may be an adequate replacement for sparring.

I'm curious, (really, Im not making a point here, Im asking) How do you spar in Aikido? or Judo? Or is it all Randori?