Family related techniques in tracy kenpo

MJS

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In the two schools I've trained in, we've never discussed it in that way, at least not when I've been present. I tend to notice similarities in certain techs, how they at least initially respond to an attack. To me, that's often the meat of the tech, that initial survival maneuvering. Deal with the incoming attack and set up to respond. That's what's most important, and that's where I sometimes notice similarities from one tech to another. The specific follow-ups are, in my opinion, less important. I see those as illustrating options that are available depending on specific circumstances, or depending on personal preference. But that initial survival of the attack, I think those could be grouped as sort of a "family".

But like I said, that's mostly in my own head. Never had the discussion in class or with any of my teachers.

Good points. I've noticed similarities as well, even in Arnis. 1 thing may be found in a variety of drills, techs, etc.

Like MJS said, I've seen discussion on the internet that indicated some differences, and I've seen video on youtube that have differences. On the whole, I'd say it's more similar than different, tho. The difference are often minor, focusing more on the final follow-ups and stuff, with the meat of the tech pretty close. It's like saying, I end XYZ tech with a punch to the nose, but HE ends it with a palm-heel to the nose. Really, there's no difference in what's happening, other than a minor personal choice.

Agreed. I recall a youtube clip from James Hawkins. On it, he shows a bunch of different ways the Parker tech. Delayed Sword, is done. They were pretty much the same, with some slight differences. :)
 

MJS

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I'm just going to throw this out there but, I'm almost positive none of this is related to Family Groupings. Do you want people asking you your rank, justification for that rank, and mental state of the teacher that gave you that rank, everytime you post? If not, then why do you do it to others?
Sean

It was mentioned briefly in the beginning. Then again, I've always been of the mind, that if you're going to put yourself out there, expect to be questioned. Anytime I step on the mat to teach, I anticipate the chance that I'll be questioned. If you put something out there, it should be a no-brainer that it'll be questioned. Of course, when I'm asked a question, I answer it, and if I can't answer it, I always do my best to find an answer. Its when you're asked a question, and you avoid it, well...that makes people continue to ask questions. Why beat around the bush? Just answer the question. :D
 

KenpoDave

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Hi folks!
Dear Crane,
I understand how you feel and if you read Mr. Tracy's blog on his website.You'll see that he is having the same approach to the material on the advanced levels. However, when you look at the system you will see several examples where you will see the obvious similarities of the techniques and approaches.
I'll write some of the simiarities on another post!
Thanks for the imput!
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE

To the best of my knowledge, the "family groupings" are not highlighted in Tracy's Kenpo, at least not in a codified way. A number of years ago, I sat down and started writing out lists of techniques that were similar, but very quickly abandoned the quest because there were too many variables of similarity. I started by grouping the initial movement, then by initial combination(where applicable). I then went went to grouping by the initial counterattaack, then by full counterattack. Then I started grouping by combination patterns, even if the strikes were different (i.e. Crossing Hammers and Flashing Daggers).

What I do now is focus on similarities in the individual private lessons based on what is being taught at the time.

I am anxious to hear Joe's comments on the groupings. Your experience in a system that codifies these things would give you a different perspective.

If you look at the Tracy's form #8, the Twin Set, Mr. Tracy has put together techniques that are similar (you do one technique strong side, followed by a "twin" weak side) but even in the form, the groupings are inconsistent (some are grouped by block (Darkness/Brushing Wind) and others by overall pattern (Crossing Hammers/Flashing Daggers).
 

MJS

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So, is this thread dead? Joe, just wondering if you were coming back to comment further on your findings.
 

MJS

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I can't say I am suprised.
Sean

True. Of course, what amazes me, is when I see people who get so upset by what someone says on a forum. I have to ask myself...what do these people do in real life?
 

KenpoDave

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Hi folks!
Two techniques that I see a family related techniques orientation are the techniques "simitar ' & "slicing dragon"
When we look at these two i see similar attacks and different ranges of motion due to natural weapons used.
There are noted base "ideal" ways for the technique to be done. What are the similarities and differences you see as a tracy practitioner & can you see my point regarding how similar they both are?
Looking forward to hearing from any tracy people!
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE

Yes, and Simitar finishes striking with a leading backfist, whereas Slicing Dragon extends the finishing combination by adding the rear elbow and repeating, introducing the chinese swings.

The "Guarding the Wall" group is one of my favorites lately.
 
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KENPOJOE

KENPOJOE

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So, is this thread dead? Joe, just wondering if you were coming back to comment further on your findings.

Hi folks!
Sorry for not getting back to you folks,been busy getting my students ready for the Las Vegas ICMAC worldwide circuit Tournament! Brought 2 students and came home w/6 medals! Great event for Chinese martial arts and one of the few CMA events that has kenpo divisions as well!

I keep busy most times teaching MA full time as well as other MA related ventures. S, i'm not always responding o the boards. Just keeping busy!

I'll add more similarities in the near future and respond to various posts as well!

BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE
 
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KENPOJOE

KENPOJOE

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To the best of my knowledge, the "family groupings" are not highlighted in Tracy's Kenpo, at least not in a codified way. A number of years ago, I sat down and started writing out lists of techniques that were similar, but very quickly abandoned the quest because there were too many variables of similarity. I started by grouping the initial movement, then by initial combination(where applicable). I then went went to grouping by the initial counterattaack, then by full counterattack. Then I started grouping by combination patterns, even if the strikes were different (i.e. Crossing Hammers and Flashing Daggers).

What I do now is focus on similarities in the individual private lessons based on what is being taught at the time.

I am anxious to hear Joe's comments on the groupings. Your experience in a system that codifies these things would give you a different perspective.

If you look at the Tracy's form #8, the Twin Set, Mr. Tracy has put together techniques that are similar (you do one technique strong side, followed by a "twin" weak side) but even in the form, the groupings are inconsistent (some are grouped by block (Darkness/Brushing Wind) and others by overall pattern (Crossing Hammers/Flashing Daggers).

Hi folks!
Thank you Dave for your input!
I knew that you might be one of the people that who explore he Tracy system in that capacity and the diverse approaches you took to catalog and categorize the various techniques.
I'll be getting back to this thread but i've been busy w/ various martial arts events that I'm either attending,judging,and or teaching a this and next month!
It's been hectic but fun!
Be Back Soon!
KENPOJOE
 
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KENPOJOE

KENPOJOE

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Yes, these are two examples that I've noticed as well. They initiate the defense in a similar fashion, then finish in a different way. If you want to call that a "family" grouping I'd agree, tho as I said, we simply don't tend to discuss it that way from my experience.

Other examples of what you might consider a Family Grouping, if that's how you want to look at it: Windmill Guard, Dropping the Staff, Bending the Staff, Rising Kick, and a variation to the right side in Turning the Rod.

Hi folks!
Dear Crane,
I'll look into those techniques and respond to you!
Just got real busy toward the end of august into September and haven't been able to revisit this board!
Respond to you soon!
Thx for your insights!
KENPOJOE
 

KenpoDave

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Hi folks!
Thank you Dave for your input!
I knew that you might be one of the people that who explore he Tracy system in that capacity and the diverse approaches you took to catalog and categorize the various techniques.
I'll be getting back to this thread but i've been busy w/ various martial arts events that I'm either attending,judging,and or teaching a this and next month!
It's been hectic but fun!
Be Back Soon!
KENPOJOE

I was playing around the other night with one of my black belts following some techniques that are similar in concept to Flashing Daggers.

We worked Flashing Daggers, Crossing Hammers, Cobra and the Mongoose, and ended up with Sickle, which I had not thought of before because the first strike is low.
 

TenTigers

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Hey Joe, (where ya goin with that..oh nevermind...)
Years ago, I was searching for key moves in kenpo trying to perhaps get an insight as to where Chow was coming from, and (this is from memory) I found several families or groupings;
1) inner block response-crashing elbows, scimitar, etc
2)windmill guard
3)techniques with rising elbow into downward palm/claw, rip into soft bow hammerfist, back kick. Or variations such as crash of the eagle
4)simultaneous palm block (downward or inward)and snap kick
5)brush blocks
6) single hand flowing combinations-from lever, circles of glass,etc
7) empty hand techniques that translate to blade work-5/7 swords-very similar to Sayoc Kali knife templates, might be a FMA influence
8) jiu-jutsu type defenses from grabs and holds-probably Mitose influence
9) spinning and pivoting movements-dancer
10) ground stomping-dance of death, etc
I'm sure there are more, if I sit down and think about it, but these are just off the top of my head.
 
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