SJON
Blue Belt
I don't think so ...
Exploring hidden techs.
- Thread starter terryl965
- Start date
I don't think so ...
astrobiologist
Brown Belt
I was just working through bunkai for the Pinan kata with my girlfriend the other night. Knowing and training the bunkai gives the kata more depth and meaning.
I have to admit that I was honestly of that mindset that forms are solely for physical and mental exercise when I was younger. Now that I look to the application of techniques, the forms that I train are so much more important to me.
When I was at a seminar with Sensei Iain Abernethy, he mentioned that the kata are like a cookbook. They are full of recipes and by training the bunkai you are learning to cook. But you won't be a 'chef' until you can apply the principles from the recipes in combat.
I have to admit that I was honestly of that mindset that forms are solely for physical and mental exercise when I was younger. Now that I look to the application of techniques, the forms that I train are so much more important to me.
When I was at a seminar with Sensei Iain Abernethy, he mentioned that the kata are like a cookbook. They are full of recipes and by training the bunkai you are learning to cook. But you won't be a 'chef' until you can apply the principles from the recipes in combat.
OP
OP
Yes it does seem with age comes appreciation for the actual application of said poomsae's
Any training method that relies on word-of-mouth transmission will lose things - whether those things were hidden deliberately or lost because something wasn't transmitted in time does not change the fact that word-of-mouth is a faulty system. No matter how it happens, I do believe that some things were not transmitted.
In addition, martial arts in general are more widespread than they've ever been, more people are learning multiple arts and applying concepts from one to another, understanding of physiology and how that applies to martial arts is increasing everyday - all of those also add to finding new, or untransmitted, applications for techniques.
Arguing over where those mistransmission occurs seems senseless to me. Either it happened, or people are discovering previously unknown application - or both. Nothing will change that now - what we can do is continue to explore, and to share, what we discover, so that those applications won't have to be discovered yet again in the future.
In addition, martial arts in general are more widespread than they've ever been, more people are learning multiple arts and applying concepts from one to another, understanding of physiology and how that applies to martial arts is increasing everyday - all of those also add to finding new, or untransmitted, applications for techniques.
Arguing over where those mistransmission occurs seems senseless to me. Either it happened, or people are discovering previously unknown application - or both. Nothing will change that now - what we can do is continue to explore, and to share, what we discover, so that those applications won't have to be discovered yet again in the future.
searcher
Senior Master
Aright guys, I am going to let you in on a secret.
There are no hidden techniques, because I stole all of them. And put them away for safe keeping.:redcaptur
On a more serious note, how do any of you know that some techniques were ever hidden or that it is actually people finding applications on their own and thinking that it was a hidden technique? You don't. I wish I could vist someof the old masters and see if they truly hid techniques or if it is just a more modern approach to the forms.
There are no hidden techniques, because I stole all of them. And put them away for safe keeping.:redcaptur
On a more serious note, how do any of you know that some techniques were ever hidden or that it is actually people finding applications on their own and thinking that it was a hidden technique? You don't. I wish I could vist someof the old masters and see if they truly hid techniques or if it is just a more modern approach to the forms.
I am visiting some of the old masters in various arts. They never learned the applications or they learned applications to highly modified kata.
Earl Weiss
Senior Master
You mean Rick Clark didn't really "Find" 75 of them for the down block / low outer forearm block?
I like his disclaimers because he often says he doesn't know if apps were real or hidden. Only that they make sense and work.
LOL.. Im gonna have to use that next time someone brings up the old "hidden" discussion - good stuff.
Like Master Weiss says of Rick Clark, at no point do I claim anything about the applications I teach being hidden in TKD, as I dont believe that. I do believe however, based on historical research from Karate historians, that Kata applications were not past forward for one reason or another.. call that hidden or not, I dunno - but that history forms part of TKDs history and make up and thus carries forward, with the main thing being that what is doen has much more to it - its really that simple.
Stuart
searcher
Senior Master
I have this knawign feeling that since george Dillman came around with his brood and their "secret" techniques that he is supposed to have found, it seems to me that a great many people are starting to "find" these hidden techniques in their forms. It is kind of irritating to me and I wish people would stop trying to be the next Dillman. There are enough applications that are easy to see in the forms that we canspend a great many years working on them. I think that if you come up with something from a form, then say that you see _______ as application from ________ form. Don't go telling everyone that you found a hidden technique. IMO, it makes you look like a loon.
*rant off*
*rant off*
astrobiologist
Brown Belt
I think some of us are looking at this term "hidden" a little differently. I in no way can say that some application to a certain set of techniques from some form was intentionally hidden by the master who created the form. I can also say, that I'm not sure if some of the versions of the forms that I practise were altered from other versions so as to make certain applciations more or less obvious. I can say outright that some of the modifications that I've made to the way i train with my forms, and the little variations that I've added, is due to the nature of the applications that I prefer to those varied segments. I'll train with what I feel is most optimal.
When I hear "hidden" in relationship to form applications, I think more about the less obvious applications. Example: I've never used the so-called low x-block to block a groin kick in a fight. I also doubt that I'll ever use that technique to block my groin in a fight. That would leave my head and torso not only open, but it may be easier to off balance me from the front that way. A lot of people, though, teach this move as an x-figure block of a groin strike. If that works for someone else, cool. But I don't like that approach to blocking the groin from the low kick for my training since I have other ways that I find more optimal. I prefer applications that utilize said "x-block" for trapping/grappling, like for twisting an arm into a bent-lock or for pulling an arm down while striking. These types of applications would be "hidden" to a non-martial artist if they just saw the form being trained. Are the applications I utilize for this technique inherent in the form? No. Were they on the minds of the Masters who created these forms? I don't know. Why do I train with them then? Because I find them useful in training for situations that involve another human being trying to injure me.
When I hear "hidden" in relationship to form applications, I think more about the less obvious applications. Example: I've never used the so-called low x-block to block a groin kick in a fight. I also doubt that I'll ever use that technique to block my groin in a fight. That would leave my head and torso not only open, but it may be easier to off balance me from the front that way. A lot of people, though, teach this move as an x-figure block of a groin strike. If that works for someone else, cool. But I don't like that approach to blocking the groin from the low kick for my training since I have other ways that I find more optimal. I prefer applications that utilize said "x-block" for trapping/grappling, like for twisting an arm into a bent-lock or for pulling an arm down while striking. These types of applications would be "hidden" to a non-martial artist if they just saw the form being trained. Are the applications I utilize for this technique inherent in the form? No. Were they on the minds of the Masters who created these forms? I don't know. Why do I train with them then? Because I find them useful in training for situations that involve another human being trying to injure me.
MSUTKD
Purple Belt
My thoughts EXACTLY.
Another thing to keep in mind is that "okuden" is real. There is a hidden level in kata in which only the highest adepts of the closest to teacher were taught. Certain moves in kata aren't shown or even implied. They rely on direct oral transmission in order to be taught.
Another aspect of "okuden" is how karate is taught. Application are doled out in layers where students are introduced to the meaning of various moves in stages. Lower graded students may know something is up at the higher levels, but none of it makes sense until it is built to that point.
I see the point in saying that nothing is really hidden, but in another sense, yes, it really was hidden, on purpose and there is plenty of literature to back that up.
Another aspect of "okuden" is how karate is taught. Application are doled out in layers where students are introduced to the meaning of various moves in stages. Lower graded students may know something is up at the higher levels, but none of it makes sense until it is built to that point.
I see the point in saying that nothing is really hidden, but in another sense, yes, it really was hidden, on purpose and there is plenty of literature to back that up.
I recently came across a post elsewhere that I thought worthy of retaining for the benefit of my students. This was written by a man called Christopher Penn.
The relevance here is that, as many have said, the techniques are in plain sight but we have only just started to understand the many different applications of those techniques.
Unfortunately, we were never taught that, BB or not. Once we realised that the 'blocks' were indeed strikes we went the next step to say 'there are NO blocks in kata', then we began to comprehend the different meanings of the techniques we practised. :asian:
These two quotes seem to be at odds with each other.. are you refering to current Masters, or Masters of yesteryear?
thanks,
Stuart
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Yes, I think thats the case. When someone says "hidden" its as if implying they were deliberatly withheld but are still there known to a special few. Perhaps 'lost' (applications) would be a better word. As history definatly shows different functions to applications than P/K/B and for one reason or another the transmission of these applications ceased and over time were in fact lost.
We will never be 100% sure if the application to such a move was 100% definatly what we find, due to the destroying of Okinawa, but hints and clues survived and, through research into this area we can be sure that applictions in their present form are unlikely to be what they were origially, therefore todays martial artists now can add some extra tools to their tool box. Some however bulk at the thought of having to learn new stuff, to admit that theres more than they presently understand and prefer to continue to hammer in their screws with a crowbar!
Dillman presented his research implying 'hidden' and 'secrets', this is not the way Iain A, Simon, myself and many others present theirs, we base our research on historical fact and draw conclusions from that. people are free to read and take from it what they wish.
Stuart
Ps. If you havnt read it yet, see 'Takwon-dos Black Hole' in issue 1 of TotallyTKD (www.totallytkd.com) as I feel this explains this area quite well. Plug Plug. :angel:
Both, in a sense, it depends on the art. For example, I've had the opportunity to train with two eight dans in Shotokan who were trained by none other then Kanazawa sensei themselves. Both of these men were fantastic practitioners of Shotokan and knew the insides and outs of every move in their kata. When I asked about the "stacked fist move" and showed them in a kata that I practice, they showed me how to perform it so that it merely was a short punch. When I trained with their upper level class there simply was nothing else but the long range ippon kumite karate which was performed extremely well.
In another example, I visited a goju studio and spoke with the instructor. Miyagi Chogun traveled to Hawaii in 1933 and taught several locals Goju. This man's teacher was a direct student of Miyagi. This person was familiar with just about every nasty trick that kata have to offer, but I was told that it would take 25 years to answer some of my specific questions about bunkai. With the way that traditional Goju is taught, you simply wouldn't be introduced to some application material until you had put in your time.
Another thing that is very interesting about Hawaii is that I have access to the people who made this. This is probably the biggest collection of rare books on Karate that I've ever seen. They even have some of the first books written on various KMAs like Tang Soo Do dating back to the early 50s. From what I've been able to glean, since I'm not a native speaker nor do I read the language, "the old masters" in KMAs simply did not know the applications to the forms.
Anyway, it all depends on who you talk to. I'll be continuing my wanderings in the upcoming days and weeks. Right now, I'm focusing on an old school Shorin teacher from Seibukan lineage. Very hard to get a hold of. Very lengthy process to arrange a visit in traditional culture. This is what "Isshinryu" looked like before Tatsuo had his revelations.
I'm wondering why it might be that the Koreans didn't know these bunkai (boon hae) details that their Japanese/Okinawan counterparts knew.
I'm wondering how much the fact that weren't natives had to do with this. Perhaps, they just weren't seen as "worthy" (for lack of a better word) to be considered as a close "disciple" of their masters.
Perhaps it could be that they didn't stay long enough & went back to Korea to teach before they could be taught these details.
I'm wondering how much the fact that weren't natives had to do with this. Perhaps, they just weren't seen as "worthy" (for lack of a better word) to be considered as a close "disciple" of their masters.
Perhaps it could be that they didn't stay long enough & went back to Korea to teach before they could be taught these details.
Very useful discussion so far!
As people have pointed out, some (perhaps much) of the contention around this issue arises from the use of the word 'hidden'. It's easy to see a word like 'hidden' or 'concealed' as implying an agent responsible for hiding or concealing something (i.e., as passive verbs). But the adjective 'hidden' doesn't imply that someone actually did any hiding of anything. Pennsylvania has a community called 'Hidden Valley' that illustrates the point nicely—no one went out of their way to hide the damned thing, eh? The place is hidden because it's not particularly accessible or obvious in any way (well, now that it's a four season resort, the management is trying to change all that, lol). In that sense, 'hidden' simply means something not immediately apparent, something you have to work to get at—and I think that's probably an apt description of some of the deeper bunkai techs, especially with the very names of the component movements, Itosu's sanitized repackaging legacy, offering easy but misleading hints about how we should interpret those movements.
There's another sense of 'hidden moves' that no one's actually mentioned, I don't think—a move which was understood to be interpolated between two overt moves in a kata. Kane & Wilder discuss these a bit. Their point is that the kata were guides to combat for MA students, but that in earlier times, a lot of the students would have already been exposed to some form or other of traditional MA (tuite in Okinawa, jujitsu in Japan) and would take such interpolated movements for granted. Again, the idea here is that no one was hiding anything, but rather that there were common techs that no one bothered to record, since they were more or less assumed as part of the combat repertoire.
As people have pointed out, some (perhaps much) of the contention around this issue arises from the use of the word 'hidden'. It's easy to see a word like 'hidden' or 'concealed' as implying an agent responsible for hiding or concealing something (i.e., as passive verbs). But the adjective 'hidden' doesn't imply that someone actually did any hiding of anything. Pennsylvania has a community called 'Hidden Valley' that illustrates the point nicely—no one went out of their way to hide the damned thing, eh? The place is hidden because it's not particularly accessible or obvious in any way (well, now that it's a four season resort, the management is trying to change all that, lol). In that sense, 'hidden' simply means something not immediately apparent, something you have to work to get at—and I think that's probably an apt description of some of the deeper bunkai techs, especially with the very names of the component movements, Itosu's sanitized repackaging legacy, offering easy but misleading hints about how we should interpret those movements.
There's another sense of 'hidden moves' that no one's actually mentioned, I don't think—a move which was understood to be interpolated between two overt moves in a kata. Kane & Wilder discuss these a bit. Their point is that the kata were guides to combat for MA students, but that in earlier times, a lot of the students would have already been exposed to some form or other of traditional MA (tuite in Okinawa, jujitsu in Japan) and would take such interpolated movements for granted. Again, the idea here is that no one was hiding anything, but rather that there were common techs that no one bothered to record, since they were more or less assumed as part of the combat repertoire.
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Very good point. Also, this is exactly the reason Tensho kata "the pushing hands kata" is within the GoJu system. The pushing hands of GoJu lets you not only experiment, but at the same time helps you gain that sensitivity and intuitiveness needed to flow.
