Here we go again

[terryl965]

Tae Kwon Do is the most propular sport in the world so some say.... I however believe TKD is ripe for the picking, we have and I mean we as in all have let the KKW and the ITF and of course the WTF run the very programs we love down to the ground. Some of us still teach old school but do we really fully understand what it is we are teaching, I see so many people jump and skip rank and then they try to teach poomsae and application only to quote what the KKW says is the only application for each poomsae, when did we forget how to apply techniques without fully understanding them? Why is it every single poomsae seminar is about how to score on the stage but offer very little in the application potion of seminars? I would really love to see a seminar that is truely for the sole purpose of application toward self defense and not competition, I know competition is important for the growth to continue but do we really need to sell out for that to happen?

I am off my soapbox now and you may continue the previous program you was watching......

 

[bluekey88]

The problem here (and it's not just tkd, but all of martial arts) Self Defense is not glamorous. It's scary, working it is hard and painful, with very little chance of payout. I mean, due to my self-defense skills, I can count on one hand the number of times I've had to physically defend myslef (most of them due to my error and should have been avoided).

Competition is fun. t is hard work, but there is some sort of immediate gratification. Even the hard core MMA crowd does not generally preach SD...rather focusing on full-contact competition. the arts that tend to really be successful pushing an SD program also tend to glamorize and dramatize stuff (for good or for ill).

Peace,
Erik

 

[Miles]

......Why is it every single poomsae seminar is about how to score on the stage but offer very little in the application potion of seminars? I would really love to see a seminar that is truely for the sole purpose of application toward self defense and not competition.....

MT Member Master Jay S. Penfil does seminars on boonhae especially in the Pyung-ahn hyung. He is extremely knowledgeable and his seminars are intense. He's one coming up in February at his school in MI. You can PM him thru MT.

 

[granfire]

The problem here (and it's not just tkd, but all of martial arts) Self Defense is not glamorous. It's scary, working it is hard and painful, with very little chance of payout. I mean, due to my self-defense skills, I can count on one hand the number of times I've had to physically defend myslef (most of them due to my error and should have been avoided).

Competition is fun. t is hard work, but there is some sort of immediate gratification. Even the hard core MMA crowd does not generally preach SD...rather focusing on full-contact competition. the arts that tend to really be successful pushing an SD program also tend to glamorize and dramatize stuff (for good or for ill).

Peace,
Erik

SD is a reminder that not all is rosey red and peachy keen in life.
People like to think because they had a short course at the Y they are fully equipped and don't want to hear they have to keep working on it.

Competition, heck you get a ribbon/trophy/medal and have fun getting beat up, it's like a picnic: you show up, play with friends, eat something, play some more and go home.

The again, forms for points, I can see where there is a danger of perverting the element/technique into the useless, just for the flash and glitter.

 

[terryl965]

MT Member Master Jay S. Penfil does seminars on boonhae especially in the Pyung-ahn hyung. He is extremely knowledgeable and his seminars are intense. He's one coming up in February at his school in MI. You can PM him thru MT.

I have been to a few of his and yes he is good but it is a long way from Texas. Well if I do come it will nice to meet everyone, lets see how my school is doing in also money man I hate it not being rich,.......

 

[dancingalone]

Terry, you might be trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. Given your high level of interest in form applications, I would just try to connect with other schools in your area that share the same interests, regardless of style or affiliation. If you're looking for the KKW to provide some leadership in this, I'm afraid you'll be waiting forever. Bunkai/boonhae is clearly not a top priority there....

 

[seasoned]

The way it was,
(2) hour classes

None, or very little sparring gear. Block or get hit.

No showers.

Changing room was hooks and a long bench for taking off shoes.

Strict set of DoJo rules, where respect for Sensei, DoJo, and others was demanded.

No contracts.

Classes were small.

If you got hurt in sparring you finished the match, never walking off the floor unless the match was stopped.

No lockers, if anybody stole anything and was caught, you sparred all the higher belts before being tossed out.

Promotions were never set in stone. No time table, and above all you never asked to get promoted. It was not time in grade.

It was never about retaining students. It was all about building character, through blood, sweat and tears.

Somewhere along the line, Martial Arts became a business, and the DoJo became a training studio. From that point forward, it was all about the money. :asian:

 

[Kittan Bachika]

The problem here (and it's not just tkd, but all of martial arts) Self Defense is not glamorous. It's scary, working it is hard and painful, with very little chance of payout. I mean, due to my self-defense skills, I can count on one hand the number of times I've had to physically defend myslef (most of them due to my error and should have been avoided).

Competition is fun. t is hard work, but there is some sort of immediate gratification. Even the hard core MMA crowd does not generally preach SD...rather focusing on full-contact competition. the arts that tend to really be successful pushing an SD program also tend to glamorize and dramatize stuff (for good or for ill).

Peace,
Erik

I concur that competition is fun and required hard work. However, it is rather alarming when people confuse the competitive aspect of martial arts with self defense. There is a thread on another forum where someone is actually convinced that Olympic TKD should be considered a combat art.

I am not sure what the hell his definition of combat is, but a lot of the techniques used in those matches are moves you do not want to do during a street fight.

 

[Tez3]

Why don't you get together and get Iain Abernethy across to do some seminars for you? You'd not regret it, I promise.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Well, you can complain about a problem or be part of the solution. Attend seminars, TKD and others that cover alternate pattern apps. Lets face it many mves are the same across styles so alternate apps from one style may well fit moves in yours. Review books on the subject, Bubishi, Dillman< Vince Mrris, The Tae Guk Cipher. original apps of the Chang Hun attterns, Rick Clark's stuff, and put together a curriculum and offer to teach seminars.

 

[dancingalone]

I mentioned before that I am teaching applications to the Chang Hon forms based on the bunkai I learned from shorin-ryu kata with some aikido theory added.

Here are some thoughts that might help any taekwondoists looking to do some of the same things. Keep in mind they are based from my perspective from studying other arts. Your very own TKD org might have different ideas.

1) None of the movements in kata should be interpreted as stepping AWAY from your attacker. They are all counters and entry gambits that CLOSE into the opponent.

2) Blocks do not always truncate in the classical position in live usage. Many of them, especially the two-handed ones, can be interpreted as grabs leading to a lock or throw.

3) Don't feel constricted by the embusen (or floor choreography). The desire to begin and end at the same spot is a pointless aesthetic, and the removal of this from your mind will lead to superior understanding.

4) There's a reason the older karate forms use more angles than the H pattern popularly framed in many of the newer tae kwon do forms. Use this as a place for investigation into techniques for tai sabaki and jutsu.

5) None of these applications work, unless you practice them over and over again with a partner. Change the stimulus (straight punch or hook or slashing blade) each time as well as the range of the attack and response. There are variable bunkai for the same sequence of kata movements based on when the defender sees the attacking coming.

 

[chungdokwan123]

The way it was,
(2) hour classes

None, or very little sparring gear. Block or get hit.

No showers.

Changing room was hooks and a long bench for taking off shoes.

Strict set of DoJo rules, where respect for Sensei, DoJo, and others was demanded.

No contracts.

Classes were small.

If you got hurt in sparring you finished the match, never walking off the floor unless the match was stopped.

No lockers, if anybody stole anything and was caught, you sparred all the higher belts before being tossed out.

Promotions were never set in stone. No time table, and above all you never asked to get promoted. It was not time in grade.

It was never about retaining students. It was all about building character, through blood, sweat and tears.

Somewhere along the line, Martial Arts became a business, and the DoJo became a training studio. From that point forward, it was all about the money. :asian:

Damn.....with the exception of the sparring gear......that is a perfect description of our dojang. I'm pleased to know that.

 

[dortiz]

Terry, this is basic but a great start. Have you done the double knife hand block as a break away from a single or double wrist grab? Its great window into seeing what we think are blocks and how they can be close techniques without any altering. The trick then is to look at all these techniques and work them out. You may find another 20 years of study buried in there. In stead of frustration you may just unlock a huge door of fun. : )

 

[SahBumNimRush]

I mentioned before that I am teaching applications to the Chang Hon forms based on the bunkai I learned from shorin-ryu kata with some aikido theory added.

Here are some thoughts that might help any taekwondoists looking to do some of the same things. Keep in mind they are based from my perspective from studying other arts. Your very own TKD org might have different ideas.

1) None of the movements in kata should be interpreted as stepping AWAY from your attacker. They are all counters and entry gambits that CLOSE into the opponent.

2) Blocks do not always truncate in the classical position in live usage. Many of them, especially the two-handed ones, can be interpreted as grabs leading to a lock or throw.

3) Don't feel constricted by the embusen (or floor choreography). The desire to begin and end at the same spot is a pointless aesthetic, and the removal of this from your mind will lead to superior understanding.

4) There's a reason the older karate forms use more angles than the H pattern popularly framed in many of the newer tae kwon do forms. Use this as a place for investigation into techniques for tai sabaki and jutsu.

5) None of these applications work, unless you practice them over and over again with a partner. Change the stimulus (straight punch or hook or slashing blade) each time as well as the range of the attack and response. There are variable bunkai for the same sequence of kata movements based on when the defender sees the attacking coming.

I agree totally, some other aspects of hyungs (poomsae, kata, etc.. .) to think about. There are no "preparation" moves, all moves have meanings, so think about these as you practice:

• Wrap ups are done specific ways and have meanings beyond preparing to block or strike.
• Stacks can most often be used as joint locks or throws.
• Stances are used as part of the techniques as well, we obviously don't fight in these stances, so why do we do them? Stances are specific, and each aspect of the stance serves a specific purpose, whether it be as a strike, center of gravity, or take down, etc.. .
• Look at other martial arts as well as your own martial art for inspiration, many of the forms (other than the new tkd forms) are practiced by many martial arts. Furthermore, you may see many similarities in other martial arts that use different forms. YouTube is an excellent source for boonhae/bunkai, but you have to sort through the BS to find what actually works.

 

[dancingalone]

• Look at other martial arts as well as your own martial art for inspiration, many of the forms (other than the new tkd forms) are practiced by many martial arts. Furthermore, you may see many similarities in other martial arts that use different forms.

Agreed. I've posted before that the best reason to use the Pyung Ahn/Bal Sek/Chul Gee forms if you're a Korean stylist is simply because there is a HUGE body of knowledge out there on fighting applications with these forms as a study aid. You can transpose some of the same knowledge to the Chang Hon and Palgue forms, less successfully with the Tae Geuks, but it's simplest if you have no organization requirements to simply go back to the source forms themselves since they're less likely to be altered in a way that destroys the meaning. A good example of this is the adoption of the side kick in the Pyung Ahns/Heians in lieu of the original front kick in the Pinan sets. As simple as an adaptation as this has big implications in the ability to close rapidly with the foe.

If one chooses to study the Pinans in their 'original' form, I am partial to how the Okinawan Kenpo people perform them. The Seito group is likeable too with lots of practical reasoning for WHY they do the things they do.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

The way it was,
(2) hour classes

None, or very little sparring gear. Block or get hit.

No showers.

Changing room was hooks and a long bench for taking off shoes.

Strict set of DoJo rules, where respect for Sensei, DoJo, and others was demanded.

No contracts.

Classes were small.

If you got hurt in sparring you finished the match, never walking off the floor unless the match was stopped.

No lockers, if anybody stole anything and was caught, you sparred all the higher belts before being tossed out.

Promotions were never set in stone. No time table, and above all you never asked to get promoted. It was not time in grade.

It was never about retaining students. It was all about building character, through blood, sweat and tears.

Somewhere along the line, Martial Arts became a business, and the DoJo became a training studio. From that point forward, it was all about the money. :asian:

The good ol' days! I remember them! Then about the mid to late eighties, it all went corporate, TKD got into the olympics, and MA went mainstream.

Neither good nor bad, and certainly, some good things did come out of MA going mainstream, but so did a lot of not so good.

I think we need to accept that the KKW/WTF is very much focused on sport taekwondo. For those KKW schools that offer the traditional atmosphere, the KKW is still there for you with regards to certifications and still has a lot of benefits. Certification is mainly what they are there for anyway.

I figure that in the end, it is the owner that runs the school. I think too many times, we look for the KKW or other organizations to tell us what to teach and how to run our school. Really, that is our job. The KKW provides a nice framework to build upon and a well designed certification system, not to mention instructors courses. Heck, simply being Kukkiwon does provide a credential and credibility to the school owner in the eyes of the customer.

Take the good and teach your best. Your students will appreciate that much more than whether or not the KKW is or is not too sport oriented, and you will have given them valuable skills and discipline that will last them a lifetime.

Daniel

 

[Gorilla]

"Take the good and teach your best. Your students will appreciate that much more than whether or not the KKW is or is not too sport oriented, and you will have given them valuable skills and discipline that will last them a lifetime."

Daniel Sullivan

Words to live by...Best thing I have read!!!!

 

[xfighter88]

I concur that competition is fun and required hard work. However, it is rather alarming when people confuse the competitive aspect of martial arts with self defense. There is a thread on another forum where someone is actually convinced that Olympic TKD should be considered a combat art.

I am not sure what the hell his definition of combat is, but a lot of the techniques used in those matches are moves you do not want to do during a street fight.

Let me preface this with a little backgrounds so that you don't think that I am some sport tkd guy with no real life experience. I am a corrections officer, I was a bouncer, and I have worked security.

Although I perfer control holds or a nice leg kick for basic self defense I dont' see a problem with someone throwing a spinning crescent in a self defense situation. If you have practiced a technique enough and it is fast and fluid, then why not throw it. I have thrown a jumping roundhouse to the ribs with great affect when I was a bouncer. Used it to cover a bit of distance on a guy who was beating up another security guy. Flashy stuff shouldn't be your only line of defense but there's nothing wrong with throwing what you know in a fight.

 

[dancingalone]

Although I perfer control holds or a nice leg kick for basic self defense I dont' see a problem with someone throwing a spinning crescent in a self defense situation.

I truly hope not in a knife fight.

If you have practiced a technique enough and it is fast and fluid, then why not throw it. I have thrown a jumping roundhouse to the ribs with great affect when I was a bouncer. Used it to cover a bit of distance on a guy who was beating up another security guy. Flashy stuff shouldn't be your only line of defense but there's nothing wrong with throwing what you know in a fight.

You could have the best 360 sidekick in the world and it still would be a fool-hardy technique to use compared to a more basic and stable strike.

Covering ground should be done with quick and smooth footwork rather than launching yourself in the air in a chaotic and crowded area.

It's your life though.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

The acrobatic kicks, i.e. 360's, 540's, 720's, 900's, etc.. ., IMHO have no advantage in a real life situation, and they do certainly have many disadvantages. That being said, a properly executed kick that you have experience in executing quickly and accurately should not be overlooked in a real life situation. Roundhouse kicks, back pivot/back wheel kicks, or even the jump/skip variants of those kicks, IMHO, have their place in real life.

But the flipping and twirling, while very impressive, is better left to the dojang or ballet floor.