Dojang Discipline Problem and Safety Concerns

[Tez3]

Okay, lets address it from this angle. From the description of the OP, this wasn't the first time the problem was identified. And in the first instance, it was not addressed with any type of discipline and/or sanctions.

Why?

It has now been addressed, but not to the satisfaction of some here looking at the situation. So why did the instructor choose this type of sanction in favor of something else?

As far as the boy being 'smacked around'...we still realize we're talking about an 8yr old kid right? Is returned violence what is being suggested here? Well...yes, that is exactly what several of you are advocating in this situation. I don't really see this as addressing the root of the issue.

But then, if retaliation, revenge and violence-in-return for this type of situation is the solution...does that apply to the next guy that cuts you off in traffic or takes your parking spot? Where is the fine line? When is teaching a kid retaliation, revenge and violence-in-return acceptable and when is it not acceptable?

I think you are over reacting to be honest and taking this out of context.

The root of the issue is that he should be stopped from sparring full stop not just stopping from sparring girls, that is reinforcing what he believes...that girls are weak, he needs to be shown they aren't and if that means a smack while they are sparring so be it. It's not revenge, it's not retaliation, it's defending yourself while sparring. It's not smacking someone because they cut you up or anything like that, it's smart sparring.

Children aren't just sweet little things, they can be killers, here we are still haunted by two ten year old boys who abducted a toddler then tortured him before killing him, it sits in our collective conciousness and makes us afraid still.

I'm not suggesting of course that there's anything like this with this boy but he needs more than just being banned from sparring with girls.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

I think you are over reacting to be honest and taking this out of context.

Am I? What this kid does as a kid, he will likely continue as an adult unless the issue is resolved.

The root of the issue is that he should be stopped from sparring full stop not just stopping from sparring girls, that is reinforcing what he believes...that girls are weak, he needs to be shown they aren't and if that means a smack while they are sparring so be it.

But this is the crux of the point I've made, the sparring was over the moment she hit the ground sucking for air. The threat, at this time was over. Some have suggested, in effect, to juice the kid up next time they sparred. That is retaliation/revenge. This is different from the sparring being active and she realizes the kid is trying to hurt her and she takes whatever appropriate measures are necessary to protect herself. This could be removing herself from the situation. It may necessitate her dumping the kid on his butt. This is different from retaliation. Teach the girl that it is okay to juice the kid in the next sparring situation is the same as teaching her it is okay to key her ex-boyfriends car when they break up or smack around his new girlfriend or have some road rage next time some schmuck cuts her off in traffic etc.

No, kids aren't little angels all the time. And with no offense intended, some have an artificial perspective on right vs. wrong based upon what happens in training in an artificial environment. Again NO offense intended...BUT...violence begets violence. That's just a fact of life. Trust me, I know. Today is Thursday. My last violent altercation was Tuesday of this week. 22yr old kid tries to kill his mom in a violent rage. I end up fighting the kid, sweeping his leg and taking him down. Result...I'm covered in the idiots blood! What lead up to this kid trying to kill his own mother? Yeah, drugs were a factor (by the way, if anyone thinks smoking K2 is cool...your an idiot). But there were very likely other factors as well. There always are. As I mentioned earlier, retaliation isn't a solution, it is only one more step down the wrong path. And again, to be crystal clear, SD isn't retaliation.

 

[Tez3]

I don't think anyone has said going up and smacking him, it's been suggested that while sparring she is able to hold her own with him and can give back as hard as she gets, not necessarily a good thing but no one has suggested she walks up to him and plant him one in the nuts.

One threat may have been over when she went to the floor but as he seems to go in hard every time he needs to be taught that he simply can't do this. One way is to stop him sparring totally and not just with girls and the other is to allow the girls to be equally hard back. The word here is 'back' not first but in return. When my daughter was young she had a lad who when he sparred with her did the same thing, next time she sparred with him when he turned it up a notch she turned it up two and he lost. It was in the context of sparring not revenge, it's on the basis as many are told spar to the level of the person sparring with you. She didn't kick him in the nuts, she beat him fair and square by the rules. She didn't start it but she finished it.

How does the girl in the OP feel now, that the boys been taken away from sparring with here? Does she feel safe or does she feel perhaps that no one thinks she's good enough at sparring so she is weak? If he's still sparring with boys it sends the wrong message, he needs to be stopped from sparring anyone.

 

[Steve]

I teach my kids to retaliate all the time. If someone smiles and says hello to them then they must do like wise and smile back and say hello to them. Retaliation is not simply a bad term. Adults simply choose to only see the bad.


I don't think he meant retaliation in your same sense. To retaliate could simply mean to confront the person. Example - My retaliation to him hitting me was to ask him to stop. If things keep going on with no change then you may need to escalate your retaliation. But teaching kids to stand up for themselves and when left no choice defend themselves, I see nothing wrong with that.

The word "retaliation" might be the sticking point here. While it means reacting in kind, it connotes a reaction that is negative or violent. Retaliation is equivalent to saying that you teach kids to get even with people who do them harm. Eye for an eye.

Frankly, I am with KSD in that I find the use of the term with regards to children troubling. I'm not saying that this is what is actually being taught, but words have layers of meaning, and retaliation implies tit for tat. Not something I'd want to teach my kids.

My Son got punched in the face at school by a kid he beat in basketball. He stood there took the punch then looked the kid right in the eyes and said very calmly "Dude, what's your problem". That was enough retaliation to back the kid down and then have him apologize for what he did. My son could have wipe the floor with the kid but did not. He was 10 at the time. He solved the problem on his own without my help. But was taught by me how to solve the problem before it got worse. I think this is what G meant with his post. Not what you have in mind.

This is not an example of retaliation.

 

[Steve]

I don't think anyone has said going up and smacking him, it's been suggested that while sparring she is able to hold her own with him and can give back as hard as she gets, not necessarily a good thing but no one has suggested she walks up to him and plant him one in the nuts.

One threat may have been over when she went to the floor but as he seems to go in hard every time he needs to be taught that he simply can't do this. One way is to stop him sparring totally and not just with girls and the other is to allow the girls to be equally hard back. The word here is 'back' not first but in return. When my daughter was young she had a lad who when he sparred with her did the same thing, next time she sparred with him when he turned it up a notch she turned it up two and he lost. It was in the context of sparring not revenge, it's on the basis as many are told spar to the level of the person sparring with you. She didn't kick him in the nuts, she beat him fair and square by the rules. She didn't start it but she finished it.

I absolutely agree with this. Sparring in BJJ is much the same. New white belts often go too hard to learn anything, and they're dangerous to their training partners. As upper belts, we tell them we will go just a little harder than them. And sometimes, that's pretty hard. Once again, I get the sense that the term "retaliation" is sticking things up, but we're mostly saying the same things.

How does the girl in the OP feel now, that the boys been taken away from sparring with here? Does she feel safe or does she feel perhaps that no one thinks she's good enough at sparring so she is weak? If he's still sparring with boys it sends the wrong message, he needs to be stopped from sparring anyone.

I'd be very interested in the answers here, as well. Great questions that get to the root of the issue. This is less about developing two young people.

 

[shesulsa]

Granfire used the more correct term: reciprocate.

I still disagree that the end of an event means the end of a threat ... there is a larger, general threat going on here.

As far as growing up to think you retaliate when someone cuts you off in traffic, well ... the pattern you seem to be following, Kong Soo Do, is that once a moment is over, all is over. Coaching, teaching, conflict, reciprocation, self-defense, character, responsibility ... these are not elements of existence that start and stop within seconds. While I'm a fan of letting things go, if you (in general) teach this girl that all is fine once blows have stopped, you (again, in general) are teaching her errantly. If it was a simple mistake, an errant blow not intended to do harm that's one thing. This particular situation is different and has an underlying and consistent flow.

It is also a very good thing to remember that these children are extremely young. This is one reason I'm such a fan of making this boy wait a while before he spars ANYONE again. Perhaps the "reset" button can be pushed with a handful of months of growth, development and careful coaching.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

I still disagree that the end of an event means the end of a threat ... there is a larger, general threat going on here.

As far as growing up to think you retaliate when someone cuts you off in traffic, well ... the pattern you seem to be following, Kong Soo Do, is that once a moment is over, all is over.

You're not understanding what I'm saying. Neither of your above statements is what I've stated. What I have stated is that when she was hit and fell to the floor, according to the OP, that situation was over as far as him and her specifically. He didn't jump on top of her and continue hitting her. That situation had ended. I never said the overall situation had been solved and in fact had stated that the underlying problem had not been addressed. Once again, the issue I have is members suggesting that retaliation is the solution. It isn't, and never will be the solution as it does nothing to address the underlying problem. It is a knee-jerk reaction at best, and poor adult-to-child teaching methodology.

 

[granfire]

You're not understanding what I'm saying. Neither of your above statements is what I've stated. What I have stated is that when she was hit and fell to the floor, according to the OP, that situation was over as far as him and her specifically. He didn't jump on top of her and continue hitting her. That situation had ended. I never said the overall situation had been solved and in fact had stated that the underlying problem had not been addressed. Once again, the issue I have is members suggesting that retaliation is the solution. It isn't, and never will be the solution as it does nothing to address the underlying problem. It is a knee-jerk reaction at best, and poor adult-to-child teaching methodology.

get off the 'retaliation' kick, will you.

What is your point anyhow?

That it irks you when adults tell their kids that they may strike back should the situation require it?

Well, some people don't understand nice and need the sledge hammer method of being shown a point.

The bigger concern in this situation is however not whether or not the little girl cleans his clock, but that a child of this young age as obvious problems with his social skills.
Maybe he would learn if the girls were not nice all the time (as in having mom and dad complain instead of giving him the thrashing he deserves - within the rules he likes to break). Or - and I could see that happen, too - he pops a gasket when being paid back in like currency. The boy has issues.
However, I also see that it's not the Dojang's role to clear them. You really can't win by telling a parent 'hey, your kid has issues'

(I much more prefer the attitude of this one kid...back when he was ten he was not bad at sparring, but constantly lost at tournaments against girls. His mom asked him why. 'I can't hit girls' he answered. and replying to the fact that he constantly sparred in class with girls with no problem 'But those are my friends!' :lol

 

[Steve]

Hey, I'm with you guys on most of this, but I'm going to say that, based on what we've been told, it's likely that BOTH of these kids have some issues, and they're likely not serious ones. They are young children and they're learning, and they both need to be taught some skills that will make them better people.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

What is your point anyhow?

That it irks you when adults tell their kids that they may strike back should the situation require it?

Why would it 'irk' me, I've never suggested anything of the sort. I have, in fact, stated that if the situation was going on 'right-now' and the girl needed to act accordingly to protect herself from harm then it was fine. However, that is not the situation as presented in the OP. My comments are based on the specific situation as presented by the OP.

Now when adults give children bad advice, such as has been presented by some in this thread then yes, that irks me. I'm just funny that way :cheers:

 

[shesulsa]

All right ... let me be painstakingly clear ... IF the girl should spar this boy again and he wind up taking the same level of aggression to her, she should respond with at least as much force as is dealt her. I'm not saying she should use illegal blows or make a special trip or anything ... I'm saying she should reciprocate and do everything she can to win this match legally and put him on his butt.

I also don't think she should give any pretense to friendship with the boy. General respect and sportsmanship, sure ... and I do realize this is asking a lot of such a young person. I don't think, however, it's too early for her to begin learning how to draw boundaries and enforce them appropriately with people around her.

I frankly don't see how anyone can misinterpret that as vengeful.

 

[Tez3]

All right ... let me be painstakingly clear ... IF the girl should spar this boy again and he wind up taking the same level of aggression to her, she should respond with at least as much force as is dealt her. I'm not saying she should use illegal blows or make a special trip or anything ... I'm saying she should reciprocate and do everything she can to win this match legally and put him on his butt.

I also don't think she should give any pretense to friendship with the boy. General respect and sportsmanship, sure ... and I do realize this is asking a lot of such a young person. I don't think, however, it's too early for her to begin learning how to draw boundaries and enforce them appropriately with people around her.

I frankly don't see how anyone can misinterpret that as vengeful.

As far as I can see this is what we are all saying, there's nothing about going up to him after the event and dealing him a low blow, it's all about if she spars with him again she needs to be aware of his tactics and be prepared to meet them with equally strong ones of her own. She needs to be able, as said here, to be able to defend herself forcefully when needed, and, as said here - legally too.
Drawing boundaries is an important lesson to learn.

 

[Steve]

All right ... let me be painstakingly clear ... IF the girl should spar this boy again and he wind up taking the same level of aggression to her, she should respond with at least as much force as is dealt her. I'm not saying she should use illegal blows or make a special trip or anything ... I'm saying she should reciprocate and do everything she can to win this match legally and put him on his butt.

I also don't think she should give any pretense to friendship with the boy. General respect and sportsmanship, sure ... and I do realize this is asking a lot of such a young person. I don't think, however, it's too early for her to begin learning how to draw boundaries and enforce them appropriately with people around her.

I frankly don't see how anyone can misinterpret that as vengeful.

However, these are kids, and because they are kids, I believe that it's critical that the adults avoid characterizing one as victim and the other as villain, which I believe I've seen in this thread. Should they spar again, which sounds likely, adults should be paying attention and be prepared to put whatever happens into context by coaching BOTH kids on how to better handle the situation next time.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

All right ... let me be painstakingly clear ... IF the girl should spar this boy again and he wind up taking the same level of aggression to her, she should respond with at least as much force as is dealt her.

And to be just as clear...has anyone disagreed with this? I have NOT, though some are reading quite a bit into my comments, despite being very clear on my postion. The key word is....IF. If she finds herself sparring this boy again, or indeed anyone and they try to hurt her, and it is happening right-then-and-there then she can do whatever is appropriate to defend herself. That takes care of the 'if' part. That isn't what happened however, and is not what was described in the OP. I addressed the issue of the OP and stated that retaliation is not a solution. And retaliation, in the situation described in the OP is not the solution. So on the issue of 'if'...there seems to be a concensus of agreement. On the issue of what actually happened, I stand by my statement(s). In the case of the OP, in order for her to seek retaliation/revenge/vengence or whatever label we'd like to use, she would have to seek out an opportunity such as a sparring session with the premeditation of juicing up the kid. That isn't a right-now situation that she just happens to find herself in , that is going in looking for a problem. As martial artists, we aren't suppose to be looking for a problem. We shouldn't be looking for retaliation/revenge/vengence or whatever. If we find ourselves in a situation that we can't walk away from, then we do what is necessary. Those are two totally separate issues.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Should they spar again, which sounds likely, adults should be paying attention and be prepared to put whatever happens into context by coaching BOTH kids on how to better handle the situation next time.

This sounds like an excellent idea to me and may go a long way towards addressing any issues one or both parties may have.

 

[jks9199]

All right ... let me be painstakingly clear ... IF the girl should spar this boy again and he wind up taking the same level of aggression to her, she should respond with at least as much force as is dealt her. I'm not saying she should use illegal blows or make a special trip or anything ... I'm saying she should reciprocate and do everything she can to win this match legally and put him on his butt.

I also don't think she should give any pretense to friendship with the boy. General respect and sportsmanship, sure ... and I do realize this is asking a lot of such a young person. I don't think, however, it's too early for her to begin learning how to draw boundaries and enforce them appropriately with people around her.

I frankly don't see how anyone can misinterpret that as vengeful.

I don't have a problem with part of this, Shesulsa. Each and every person this boy fights should be given permission to go at him as hard as he comes at them. I suspect that'll ramp him down in fairly short order; it's amazing how some people go so hard when they're confident that the other person won't hit back. But I think, given the info in the original post, the problem is deeper than this boy and this girl, and I think that, given their ages, the school supervision was lacking in permitting this to reach a chronic level.

But -- and maybe this is my own limited experience with 8 to 10 year olds -- I don't think this was a problem the two kids were equipped to solve on their own, and I don't know that they can recognize the difference between responding in kind and revenge. That's why I put the burden on the person who was supposed to be supervising them, and ultimately, on the head instructor.