Does revoking rank mean anything?

[hardheadjarhead]

I suppose any association would have the right to "revoke" rank and publicly state that a person is no longer in good standing within their community.

That wouldn't prevent the person in question from maintaining his status as a black belt and an independent. He could petition another organization for membership and reclaim his status in the new association. This has happened a number of times.

For the association revoking the rank, the revocation is at the very least symbolic. Certainly they're aware such an act won't rob the miscreant of their skills. Their actions represent an act of disavowment, of shunning or meidung that distances them from the person targeted as anathema.

This serves more than a symbolic purpose with certain professions. The loss of a license for the lawyer or the doctor prevents their practice. They might be able to reference their degree and display it, but they can not market their skills without suffering legal consequences. For the cashiered military officer it is essentially the end of a career (and probably jail time) with a tremendous burden of attendant shame.

In the martial arts we generally have no state licensing boards that require certification or backing from a professional organization (at least not here in Indiana), so the issue of revocation is largely moot from that perspective.

So...can rank be revoked? Of course. Does that mean anything? Perhaps only to those directly involved with the process or those researching the past of the instructor in question. It is not so impotent an action that it can be easily ignored, as one's reputation can be badly damaged. The effects likely will not be lasting, however--unless the person subject to the revocation has done something so vile as to merit the enduring disgust of the population at large.


Regards,


Steve

 

[Tgace]

Nicely put.

 

[hardheadjarhead]

Thanks.


Regards,


Steve

 

[Tgace]

Your welcome.

I think much of the ugliness on the other thread stemmed from a misunderstanding between the "Philosophical" concept of what MA rank "is" and if an organization can say they revoke rank. Of course an organization can say whatever they want. I would say you can revoke "organizational rank" but you cant really revoke rank thats issued based on skill.

That wouldn't prevent the person in question from maintaining his status as a black belt and an independent.

That sentence sums that point up pretty well.

 

[Tgace]

Excellent essay that examines the relationship between Rank, Politics and the root of MA feuds.

http://uechi-ryu.com/oldsite/evolution_of_martial_arts_politi.htm

 

[Flatlander]

A most excellent essay. A reccommended read for anyone remotely interested in the issue. Good research, Tom.


-Dan

 

[dubljay]

Nice find on the essay. I've bookmarked it for future reference.

 

[KenpoNoChikara]

Rank cannot be revolked only taken away is a piece of paper knowledge will always stay

Coulden't agree with you more. How many people here have a " Probation Period"
after their Black Belt test?

Respectfully, kenponochikara:asian:

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Coulden't agree with you more. How many people here have a " Probation Period"
after their Black Belt test?

Respectfully, kenponochikara:asian:

Some Modern Arnis orgs use a probationary black belt.

 

[loki09789]

Some Modern Arnis orgs use a probationary black belt.

As far as I understood it, RP used this probationary period for BB to allow a person who demonstrated BB promotable stuff did earn the BB, but also gave them a period for that student to tighten up any weak spots in their performance and demonstrate that improvement after a set period (I think it was good for a year?). Was that the case?

Do you know what the logic is in the org.s that are still using it? Tradition? Same rationale as RP? Or, do they have a different reason?

It is a reasonable practice to keep the 'belt hounds' that have a BB in another system and are dabbling in MA from racking up another BB and just walking away. After a year, or what ever the probationary period, if they quite showing up or don't demonstrate improvement in those key areas - the belt rank expires. Of course that won't (and hasn't) stopped people from keeping MA in their schools, but it does keep them from implying that they are current or that they are 'officially recognized' if they let their rank expire because of lack of work or lack of attendance....

 

[Cruentus]

Just real quick...

When I recieved my Lakan, I understood that it was a black belt, not a probationary one.

After recieving it, others would tell me that it was "only" a probationary belt, not a "full" blackbelt. Concerned, I asked Professor Remy about this, and he said, "you are a black belt." I was treated like a black belt from that point on.

Yours,
PJMOD

 

[Enson]

i don't put too much meaning if someone gets their rank revoked for a disagreement. now if they began be dishonest they could be banned from the school. that still means they put in their time and still hold that rank.

peace

 

[loki09789]

Just real quick...

When I recieved my Lakan, I understood that it was a black belt, not a probationary one.

After recieving it, others would tell me that it was "only" a probationary belt, not a "full" blackbelt. Concerned, I asked Professor Remy about this, and he said, "you are a black belt." I was treated like a black belt from that point on.

Yours,
PJMOD

I wasn't referring to you specifically or at all PaulJ. I know that there were, during RP's lifetime, cases of 'straight black belt' promotions. Rich Curren as a matter of fact did such a bang up job during his BB test that RP awarded him a full BB based on his demonstration of skill and ability to a high proficiency. Rich still is a 'very bad man' to this day.

 

[Cruentus]

I wasn't referring to you specifically or at all PaulJ.

Woooord...

I was just throwing in that bit history is all.

:ultracool

 

[tshadowchaser]

Perhaps more organizations should put on the BB cert. something to the effect that the rank is given to said person for such a time that he/she keeps in good standing with the org. and is of good moral character, and fulfills the obligations of rank within the organization. That if any of these principles are not fulfilled or he is found to not be honorable then Said certificate is revoked along with rank and the person is reduced to white belt beginner before explosion.

 

[loki09789]

Perhaps more organizations should put on the BB cert. something to the effect that the rank is given to said person for such a time that he/she keeps in good standing with the org. and is of good moral character, and fulfills the obligations of rank within the organization. That if any of these principles are not fulfilled or he is found to not be honorable then Said certificate is revoked along with rank and the person is reduced to white belt beginner before explosion.

That kind of clarification would go a long way, but if you don't award rank based on 'character' (as in you are saying that you are evaluating a growth in 'character' or higher 'character' expectations with each increase in 'rank' like you do with physical skill/ability/understanding) then IMO, the act of revoking a persons rank is unethical.

The idea of a 'side by side' programs where the academic curriculum works hand in hand with the 'character' program is a good one. You can hold students accountable within the 'character program' by making the eligibility of promotion/rank conditional on good character in class, but unless you are specifically testing some kind of 'character' element within the rank test, I don't see how you can touch rank based on character.

My organizational program is build in basically a three track outline.

There is the 'rank/skill' curriculum that is the bulk of our time: Self Defense, martial arts, conditioning....the usual. The objective is to develop physical skill in self defense skills.

There is the 'character' curriculum that is made up of the code of conduct and the administrative process of orientation, retraining and punitive actions. The objective of that curriculum is to promote a cooperative, team oriented working environment by identifying clear expectations and modeling that conduct as instrutors.

Then there is the INstructor training track which has basic requirements that include but are not only based on rank. Here is where rank+Character blend for me. If are a good student and do your job in class, great. You get to stay and learn and are eligible for promotion BUT if you are an instructor candidate, you have to be able to demonstrate both SKILL/RANK (as appropriate to your level) and a good character. The "code of conduct" and the traits that specifically are linked to the code are discussed along with teaching techniques and skills including planning, assessing, class management, positive reinforcement....

If I have a character issue with a student/instructor, I can take away their authority as instructor in my class by 'stripping' them of the 'instructor status' (basic, intermediate, senior, advance...what ever) but I can't take away the skill earned rank they worked to get.

Now, will this stop them from leaving and starting up their own school? No. But, within my school and within my program, I know where and what I am focusing on (character, skill, instruction training) when I outline it this way and also recognize where they overlap and where they don't.

This, to me, is the only way to have a solid program that is run ethically, fairly and reduces the opportunity for me or some other instructor to wield 'power' out of anger. The outline is there. If I act 'above the law' then there are other instructors who know the deal and can advise me (read beat me on the head and tell me to quite cheating) appropriately.

 

[Sin]

i belive that the only rank that can be revokable is that of an instructor (junior/senior)...If you are not partisipating and putting forth an effort..then you have no place in teaching anyone anything...when you have a lot to learn yourself

 

[KenpoNoChikara]

I understand some dojos have 'probation' so a student dosen't have the test, and then quit a day later.

 

[loki09789]

I understand some dojos have 'probation' so a student dosen't have the test, and then quit a day later.

If you are using the 'probation' process as a 'force out technique' then it is an unethical process. If you are doing it knowing that the person may choose to leave or stay and stick it out...then it is a facilitation of character education.

If you want someone out, kick them out - just make sure that you have followed your administrative 'due process' well and your ducks are in a row. Morally, you ensure that you are aligned to your educational mission. Letigiously, you are a harder target for 'unfair practices' (or what ever this sue happy culture can call it when someone wants to take you to court because they didn't feel all warm and fuzzy).

Like I said, it really comes down to subtle differences in approach and structure based on what you think is important. Like politics, some will argue for a certain way or against a different way based on their philosophical stance.

No matter the approach or program structure, as long as the intention and motive is good training and quality in art and character, you are heading in the right direction.

When it becomes about the "Semper I..F*** the other guy" or "Not getting your respect" when you take administrative action...then it is unethical.

 

[loki09789]

i belive that the only rank that can be revokable is that of an instructor (junior/senior)...If you are not partisipating and putting forth an effort..then you have no place in teaching anyone anything...when you have a lot to learn yourself

Well said. A 'teaching rank' or authority can be yanked because then the organization is taking away the person's authorization to practice that skill (teaching in this case) - at least within their organization.