Rankings In Class

[Raewyn]

Sarah posted a smiliar thread a while back. I train in the same Dojo as she does. Our instructor has us in ranking level within our belt level. We are numbered from No 1 in the class to 14th the lowest in the class in ability. Alot of you who posted said this was not a good idea, and all the posts that were posted I totally agreed with. I actually spoke to our instructor about this but he went off in a tangent and did not really answer the question. At training last week our instructor mentioned to us about how to better ourselves in becoming a Martial Artist. This is quite hard to explain in words so Ill give it a go anyway.

He said to us when we stand in belt rank, like all the green tips together, if I am standing in front of a green tip who I think is better than me and who holds the same rank as me, I should than stand behind him, because I feel he is better than me, apparantley this will help me to aspire to be as good or if not better than he is. I do not totally agree with this. Its not really a confidence booster. Could you please post your thoughts about this.

 

[Kempojujutsu]

I think most start martial arts to better themselves personally. Make us better people. Not trying to be number 1 and boosting about it. I think when we are in class we know who is better then us. We don't need someone telling us "yes John is are best student". What your instructor needs to do is help get all of the students up to John's level of training, not just telling us.

Bob

 

[michaeledward]

I find it odd that the one would be ranked within a belt level.

Learning theory tells us that in most activities, we do not progress on a linear trajectory; one hour of training does not produce one hour of improvement. Rather, as hours of training accumulate, the improvement will manifest in a large step to the next level of competancy.

For example, if one uses a 'typewriter' regularly, they may have typed at 80 words per minute for years ... and then one day they begin typing at 110 words per minute.

It seems to me that your instructor is trying to "linearize" his students' progress. I think this may be more about his need for 'control', than good teaching practice.

My suggestion, is try and be as patient, and humble, as you can and perhaps your instructor will learn from your example.

Peace - Mike

 

[terryl965]

I think it is total useless, one does not measure everyone ability by the few that are at the top. Every single person should be measure by there progress not the class. MA is about self awareness, self pride and self accompliments not a group. Every person has there own reason for doing class some it's the competition,others the Art, some it's a confidence builder, other the the simple fact of believing you can take care of your self when you have to. I train people and not once do I compare my student to another student. When someones say I can't do this or that like so and so, I always tell them do not compare yourself with them do the best that you can at that particular moment and has time comes so will the student ability.. My two cents wroth...GOD BLESS AMERICA

 

[Flatlander]

Belt ranking is intended to be a metric by which you may quantify your progress toward a known goal. It is a way for the instructor to demonstrate to you that you are progressing in the art.

As someone else said, learning martial arts is a personal journey, focusing on the improvement of the self. It is not a team sport, it is not necessarily a group activity.

Because of the individualistic nature of martial training, there is absolutely no value in drawing a comparison between different members of the class. Given that just about anyone with a head on their shoulders knows that this was not the intent of the belt system in the first place, it seems to me that your instructor is a weird one.

Now, I understand that he is using this comparison as a motivational tool. Not all people respond to this type of motivation. Some do, and for them it works well, but for others, it is completely counter-productive. Raisin, maybe you could mention to your instructor that he could now or in the future be alienating some people because of his motivational techniques.

But in the end, it IS the instructor's perogative how they would like to structure and conduct their class. If it doesn't mesh with the way you want to train, move along. You'll find someone who works better for you.

Good luck, and good training.

Dan

 

[OC Kid]

When we line up its according to a few things.
1st rank. We have in belt ranks such as JuKyu 10th class and KyuKyu 9th class both wear Orange belts. So the kyu kyu is the higher rank in the same belt color. Then it goes to time in rank. If Johnny was promoted before Steve even if they tested at the same time then Johnny would be Steves senior in rank. So it goes even through the Dan ranks.

 

[mhouse]

I have to agree with everyone else here. Sub-ranking within a belt seems kind of odd. If you are in a mixed group and someone truely is more talented and it ready, then let them test for the next rank and be done with it. What concerns me is that it will instill the concept that someone really is "better" than you.

If you are always testing together and always at the same rank, but the instructor keeps telling you that the other person is better, then that will start to sink in. This will then affect the ability to grow and improve. It becomes an unnecessary mental block.

On the flip side, what's to point the regular ranks for those who are always in the #1 position. Why haven't they been testing more frequently?

All that being said, I will admit my school sort of does this within the black belt ranks. Since we treat the Sensei title as separate from the belt, it must be earned through training classes and minimum hours of teaching. When we line up in class, those without the Sensei title try to give deference to those who have gone through the effort to earn it, but only within their Dan.

 

[Andrew Green]

Well, would you rather train in a competitive environment where everyone is always out to prove who is better then who. Or a more relaxed environment where everyone helps everyone else regardless of current ability?

I think it is a very bad idea, if you didn't guess

 

[kenpo tiger]

The only difference within rank in our school is if you are at the advanced level within that belt - and you must test for it. It is indicated by a stripe. Brown is different, however, in that we start with three stripes, promote to two and then to one. There is no advanced level indicated, although there are people within Brown I who are closer to testing for black than others. We do try to give respect by time in the art when we line up, but that's really unimportant once you get to that level. And there are people who completely ignore it and will line up above the black belts if they are present, but, again, no one says anything because we all train together and it really is unimportant within the scheme of things.

One of my instructors used to explain lining up within rank as a learning tool. You have the more advanced people where you can see them and observe how they do the particular drill or technique so you can learn from them. I don't know that I necessarily agree with that because, as was pointed out by others upthread, there are varying levels of competency. That same instructor told us that we compare ourselves to no one but ourselves. Confused yet? KT

 

[Hollywood1340]

We used to do this at my school. Now we line up by height before we line up for class. Short people in front, tall in the back. Makes it easier for all.

 

[TigerWoman]

So if a person who is also a green belt like yourself, for example, is graded higher - by test? - by one performance? would be in front of you? What if that person was really great technically, but had mentally far to go...how would your teacher judge that or what you are really about? So, in that mentality, for example, we, in our school, have a blind person going through the ranks...I guess she would be behind everybody but she tries the hardest with the tools God has given her. She should be behind a teenager who finds it easy to do high kicks, the technical stuff? I don't think so. That same teenager would have roadblocks like determination, self control, discipline and perseverance problems. Most have quit in high school--so much for martial arts where the blind person keeps plugging on.

Then you get into really judging and comparing people. We are all on our unique path of self betterment and we should not compare ourselves to each other. Some do not try as hard however and success comes easily--too easily. Some work very hard and have to put in extra time to make a small amount of progress. I see the first group in our school getting rewarded for little effort and the handicapped people getting discouraged from all the effort required for little progress.

I think it would be better to have a personal goals chart on each individual for only that individual to see and the instructor panel. In my school, though, I think more than one "judge" has to put together such a chart so that it is non-biased.

We stand in line right now according to rank and to who tested first or in the case of my two children who tested together, the oldest first. I tested for 2nd dan but don't feel right standing in front of a 1st Dan who tested for that belt before me though, especially since I have one requirement left to complete it. :idunno: what will happen to that...

TW

 

[Raewyn]

We have seperate classes generally for each belt rank, but we do have higher belt ranks that come in and join so naturally they would stand in front. He's basically told us that within our own belt ranks say all yellow belts, you need to line up in regards to ability. I totally agree with everything everybody has said here. We all have our own abilities and ways in which we progress and yes it is a personal thing and we are all there to help each other in class. We are all in our own way trying to better ourselves and reach our own personal goals.

 

[Thesemindz]

I think it's important to have higher ranking students up front, just because it gives the lower ranking students someone who should know what's going on to look to if they are unsure of what they should be doing in any particular exercise, and it gives them a good role model to aspire to. As far as ranking within a belt, especially by ability, I think that's a little much. I don't want to rank myself above others of my rank because I think I'm better, that's not my style. I'd rather stand as an equal and let each student perform to the best of his own ability. Besides, what decides who's better. I can punch the daylights out of you, but you can kick me in the head. I can do forms better, but you're better at techniques. Who stands in front?

Nah, black up and to the right, white back and to the left, everyone else file in. Let's start doing karate and quit worrying about fashion.


-Rob

 

[KenpoTess]

We go by age in the colored belts.. the oldest lines up first. Black Belts, we line up according to who's been ranked longest in that particular belt.

~Tess

 

[DeLamar.J]

Sarah posted a smiliar thread a while back. I train in the same Dojo as she does. Our instructor has us in ranking level within our belt level. We are numbered from No 1 in the class to 14th the lowest in the class in ability. Alot of you who posted said this was not a good idea, and all the posts that were posted I totally agreed with. I actually spoke to our instructor about this but he went off in a tangent and did not really answer the question. At training last week our instructor mentioned to us about how to better ourselves in becoming a Martial Artist. This is quite hard to explain in words so Ill give it a go anyway.

He said to us when we stand in belt rank, like all the green tips together, if I am standing in front of a green tip who I think is better than me and who holds the same rank as me, I should than stand behind him, because I feel he is better than me, apparantley this will help me to aspire to be as good or if not better than he is. I do not totally agree with this. Its not really a confidence booster. Could you please post your thoughts about this.

The way we stand in line at my school, is who ever has the most time in that rank stands in front, if they both made the rank at the same time, then who ever is older stands higher in line. This eliminates alot of problems. If they were both born on the same day and made the same rank at the same time I dont know :lol: I have not ran into that yet.
I dont really like the whole belt thing, but it is very helpful when you have alot of students and cant remember where each one of them are in there training. Or if they quit and come back later it makes it easy to know where they left off.
Plus most people need a since of accomplishment like a belt or something, to keep them going and help them feel like there are getting somewhere.

 

[Rob Broad]

Again it appeasrs I am Bass Akwards. I have my peopel line up lowest to highest. That way the beginners can see me directly and I can catch their errors. the higher ranks don't need as much correction.

 

[Thesemindz]

Again it appeasrs I am Bass Akwards. I have my peopel line up lowest to highest. That way the beginners can see me directly and I can catch their errors. the higher ranks don't need as much correction.

That makes sense, and if it works for you great. I don't want new students to feel like people are watching them, so they line up in the back where they can watch the experienced people, and then I position assistants near them where they can help out. Either way, we both line the students up in a way that is oriented on how to help them get better and has their best interests in mind, and I think that's the most important thing.


-Rob

 

[Raewyn]

That makes sense, and if it works for you great. I don't want new students to feel like people are watching them, so they line up in the back where they can watch the experienced people, and then I position assistants near them where they can help out. Either way, we both line the students up in a way that is oriented on how to help them get better and has their best interests in mind, and I think that's the most important thing.


-Rob

Thats a really good point to bring up with my instructor. I have classess on a Tuesdays and Wednesdays and its for yellow belts but other belt ranks are alllowed to come as well, but when you get a lot of higher belt ranks in our class they of course fill up the front two rows and me at the back there dont get to really see a thing. I dont begrudge the other belts coming, but I sort of see it as my time to learn and being a visual learner I need to see our instrcutor.

 

[Thesemindz]

When I'm teaching an underbelt class I always have several advanced students show up, although nowhere near enough to fill two full rows. At least your instructor seems to be teaching some exciting yellow belt classes.
I am constantly repositioning the advanced students so that the students who are supposed to be in that class get the most from the participation of their seniors. I will have the brown belts spread out during drills, walking the lines during basics, at the sides and middle during forms so that there is one somewhere near anyone who needs a model to follow, or just holding pads. It's not really their class, but I'm glad they show up and participate, and they get as much out of it as the yellow belts, their just practicing different skills. Things like leadership and assisting an instructor and leading warm ups.


-Rob

 

[AaronLucia]

We have belts in Ninjutsu, but not really. Basically, if you are just starting off, you get a white. Generally, once youv'e got the 'basic basic' ideas, you'll get green. From there, you train until you get black and when u get that, the ful really begins.

Both of my instructors don't really care if you wear a belt or not.. some students do, most don't.