Debate: What is 'Rank' really worth?

[Bob Hubbard]

I posted this on another forum, and the responses were very interesting, and very heated. After carefully consulting with the staff of this site, I am posting it here, for reply, debate and countering.

Please, speak your mind, but keep things within this sites rules.

Thank you.

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What is 'Rank' really worth?

People get bent out of shape over belts and ranks and certificates. Why? In the end, rank is truly meaningless. It is but a means of keeping score, or setting a pecking order, within a single organization. Once you get outside of the structure which issued the rank, the system breaks down.

I asked a while back, who is the better person and who is the senior person when comparing same numeric ranks between arts, styles and even organizations studying the same art. I rarely get an answer.

Some will point at the college model, but aren't degrees from some universities seen in a higher light than those from others?

Which looks better? Harvard or "University of Pheonix" on your diploma? Both, accredited universities. One though, has the reputation of tradition and high standards.

Same is true in the martial arts.
2 schools teaching the same art my have different criteria for belt levels, and rank. One may be very strict and insist on perfection, another, lax in precision.

The argument towards peer-review boards is the same. The quality of a board is totally dependent on the quality and experience of those sitting on it. Not their ranks. The worth of anything issued by these boards is a cumulation of who is on them, and who they have issued it it, and how they issued it.

In 2003 I received an invitation to become a "soke" from some group in Florida. I don't remember their name and flushed the email as spam. I do remember laughing as I was a blue belt at the time. For a meager $300 I could 'accept' this great honor due to my contributions to the arts and mastery of them. I passed. Some here hold differing opinions on me and my skill level. Truth is, I'm not 'good' enough now, nor was I then to suddenly 'buy' myself a promotion to grandmaster status. But, what is the worth of an 'honor' if it is simply because your name is on the mailing list?

Those boards that collect your money and issue you certs without seeing you, or because you sent in a video they probably didn't watch....they are part of the problem.

The ones that you stand in front of, and show everything you have, and make you think, and explain, and sweat and maybe even bleed...who have people on board who have been there themselves...those are the ones worth considering, as they are more likely truly interested in the quality of the arts, not just easy money.


The bottom line though is, rank, is merely a means of keeping score.
Some are worth more than others, but at the end of the day, experience and ability count for more than any piece of paper or number.

 

[stone_dragone]

Which looks better? Harvard or "University of Phoenix" on your diploma? Both, accredited universities. One though, has the reputation of tradition and high standards.

Yes, but Harvard is a good school, too.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Yes, but Harvard is a good school, too.

Harvard is it not referred to as the Michigan of the East coast?


Rank in some organizations gives them the capability of making lots of money. If they are the highest rank in a region then all those seeking high rank, will have to go through them. And in such organizations they can charge lots of money for such rank.

So, while Rank can come and go, and those who have it can come and go, teh value will depend upon the people who are seeking it and those who value it for themselves.

 

[Steel Tiger]

This is very interesting. The real value of rank exists only within the organisation bestowing it. Within the organisation there should be a standard for promotion that all have to achieve, thus maintaining a consistency throughout. Unfortunately this is not always the case.

Further, to maintain the value of a ranking system organisations should not be adding additional ranks at the top. If Grand Master is the pinnacle of the organisation so be it. Value of such a title is diluted when others like Great Grand Master, Supreme Grand Master, and Supreme Great Grand Master are added.

And rank crossing from one organisation to another? Perhaps in very broad arts like Karate and Jujutsu with their numerous styles and schools but an essential sameness it could work. But not, say TKD and Jujustu. If an organisation wishes to bestow upon an outsider a rank, especially a high one, then it should be made clear that the rank is honorary. The person has been given the rank because of their achievements not because they have worked through the organisation's own ranking system. It might clear up a lot of confusion and allow the genuine people to be seen through the haze of fakirs and charlatans.

The whole situation regarding the value of rank is made worse by the rank collectors. They seem to go at it like there will be a prize in heaven for the person with the most 10th degrees. I know that an impressive list of high ranking titles will generally garner them more money, and as their in a business, good luck to them, but there is a point where this becomes ridiculous.

It simply cannot be possible to devote oneself to five or six arts with enough vigour and determination to achieve very high rank. It would simply be exhausting. Admittedly, ranks like 7, 8, 9, and 10 degree are often awarded without any testing or qualifying process, so they might be easier to gain than a 4th or 5th degree (sounds a little strange doesn't it). But then the nasty spectre of nepotism rasies its head.

What is rank really worth? Within its context it is an effective measuring tool. Outside that context it value becomes a strange ephemeral thing so diluted by bad practices it is almost transparent.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Well put.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I train traditional CMA and we have no ranking system so how should I know, that or I am not worthy to answer because I have no rank

 

[Bob Hubbard]

So....how do you know who is who in the pecking order? How does your instructor know what you've done or not done?

 

[kidswarrior]

I would have two answers, one personal and the other for my students.

For myself, rank means only what I'm able to do on any given day. Perhaps most days I'm able--if necessary--to put up a self defense or a defense on behalf of others (innocents) which would justify my ranking. But my rank doesn't guarantee that outcome, whether said rank was granted by an 'in person' board or a video board (and I've seen more than a few 'personal' examiners whose motives were at best suspect).

Regardless of the board's credibility with me or others, the board is not going to fight my battles for me. And even with the best intentions, board members cannot really predict with any certainty how their artificial testing conditions might translate for each individual in an authentic situation. I first learned this in and after boot camp decades ago, and have been surprised quite a few times since, as well.

Regarding my students, our ranking system is, as the OP says, a way of keeping score. And since I teach teens, who love competition (individuation is a normal part of maturation), it can be fun and motivating. But it shouldn't be mistaken for a guarantee of how an individual will react in an emergent, dangerous situation.

I know this view is very idiosynchratic, and I'm willing to acccept that it's therefore very limited. But this is how the importance of rank plays out in my own day to day experience. :asian:

 

[Steel Tiger]

I would have two answers, one personal and the other for my students.

For myself, rank means only what I'm able to do on any given day. Perhaps most days I'm able--if necessary--to put up a self defense or a defense on behalf of others (innocents) which would justify my ranking. But my rank doesn't guarantee that outcome, whether said rank was granted by an 'in person' board or a video board (and I've seen more than a few 'personal' examiners whose motives were at best suspect).

Regardless of the board's credibility with me or others, the board is not going to fight my battles for me. And even with the best intentions, board members cannot really predict with any certainty how their artificial testing conditions might translate for each individual in an authentic situation. I first learned this in and after boot camp decades ago, and have been surprised quite a few times since, as well.

Regarding my students, our ranking system is, as the OP says, a way of keeping score. And since I teach teens, who love competition (individuation is a normal part of maturation), it can be fun and motivating. But it shouldn't be mistaken for a guarantee of how an individual will react in an emergent, dangerous situation.

I know this view is very idiosynchratic, and I'm willing to acccept that it's therefore very limited. But this is how the importance of rank plays out in my own day to day experience. :asian:

Idiosyncracy is good. Without it we would all be the same and that would be very boring.

 

[Drac]

I train traditional CMA and we have no ranking system so how should I know, that or I am not worthy to answer because I have no rank

I am in the same boat as Xue..

 

[Xue Sheng]

So....how do you know who is who in the pecking order? How does your instructor know what you've done or not done?

The only thing I have come across in both Taiji and Xingyi is there may be an advanced class and you need to know certain forms before you get to it.

Currently, Taiji, I am in a small class and sifu just knows as do the rest of us, but there really are no pecking order. There are those that sifu has help there are those that he puts in his advanced class and there are some that stay after for additional lessons. But it is all up to sifu and it works rather well

Sanda, is a class of me so there is no pecking order beyond Sifu and me and I do not think I want to forget that.

Xingyi had no pecking order beyond Sifu and then students and you do NOT want to forget that in this class.

Back when I was in a much larger CMA school there was no real pecking order per the Sifu, again there were those that helped teach and those that didn't. However I did notice in this school, since it was considerably larger, there were a lot of attitudes, some based on belts they had elsewhere some based on personality.

Basically it has been my experince in CMA that in general there is the teacher and then there are students until the teacher says otherwise. But the way it originally was in my taiji class and is becoming again is the sifu IS the pecking order as it is with Sanda and Xingyi.

However CMA classes in general appear much less organized much less orderly and much more relaxed than most JMA classes you come across, for the most part.

 

[terryl965]

I will speak for someone who had been doing MA for over forty years and half in TKD so here goes rank from my school is worth $1.50 for the certificate and another .35 cents in ink to make it, now when you reach BB at my school the rank certificate from the school cast $35.00 and it is done by a fine print shop with all the bells and whistle along with a beatiful frame amd a wallet size card to carry and if you choose to get a Dan rank for the certificate as well, then that is another $70.00 plus shipping and handling. In all in all I make $50.00 toward my school and most of that goes back into a new uniform I give all BB when they pass.

Now here is the bad side of the spectum, most peole think that is a license to start teaching MA and it is not it is a hard grind to ecome a martial art instructor. I wish rank was really something but for most it s a way to cash in on the society of people who believe in a cheap babysitter and a why for some people to live life though there childern.

In closing my rank means nothing to me, I mean the one from the kukkiwon it allows me to get others a KK if they choose too, the paper that means the most to me is th one given to me by my father, that is worth it wieght in gold and can nevr be rplace by anything, for him to give me my BB meant he believed in me and that I was willing to do the right thing.

Great topic by the way.

 

[WMKS Shogun]

I read an article that compared rank to paper money. Rank only as meaning as long as it has value, but that due to counterfeiting, that value can be lessened. With places giving out and selling rank, the ranks of those who earn them are decreased in the public eye. Meanwhile, as long as you know yours is the genuine article, you likely do not care.
Honestly, the only reason I continue to work to gain rank is because I must in order to promote my students because it is a tad inconvenient to bring my instructor every few months when I have a group of students ready to test.

 

[Andrew Green]

So....how do you know who is who in the pecking order? How does your instructor know what you've done or not done?

Spar with them, count your bruises, that tells you all you need to know

But seriously, if your instructor doesn't know what he has taught you, find a new instructor, one that pays attention to what he is doing.

 

[morph4me]

In my career in the martial arts I have had the dubious honor of eating dinner with a GrandMaster, who shall remain nameless, and having him show me how to throw a punch which left me so off balance that I found myself hoping that if I was ever attacked, it would be by one of his students. I have trained at seminars with low ranking students of other arts that taught me things I had never even thought of, and had my own students make me reevaluate what I was teaching.

I have no regard at all for rank, but high regard for skill and enough experience to realize that the two don't always go hand in hand.

 

[arnisador]

The bottom line though is, rank, is merely a means of keeping score.

It's also a means of keeping track. In a larger school, belts let the instructor quickly size up who knows what and what they should be working on or capable of helping a lower-ranked student with. It's all well and good to say that he should remember that Johnny S. is (the equivalent of) a 2-stripe green belt and that Johnny T. is (the equivalent of) a 1-stripe green belt, but for larger schools that's unrealistic. The colored belts serve as an easy-to-use record-keeping system. How long has she been here? What does she know? What should I teach her today? What can she teach someone else today? You can say "The instructor should know each student individually," but at a commercial school this'll happen. Don't like it? Pay the prices necessary to support a full-time martial arts instructor with a fully equipped gym who teaches only 12 stduent-disciples.

Where I take JKD--adults only--the instructor uses colored belts through black belt for just this reason, but there is only just plain black belt for instructors. There are no degrees of black; after testing successfully for instructor rank, one is authorized to wear a black belt, and that's that. Okinawa-te has a similar system for black belt.

Colored belts also have value for motivating students, and especially younger students. While there are many downsides to that, if it keeps young kids in the arts until they're sufficiently self-motivated, how bad is it?

Having a system to establish "transfer credit" can be useful too. (I speak as someone who started over again repeatedly due to frequent moves.) If an ATA green belt changes cities, he can hope to keep his rank; if he has no rank, it'll take some while for his new instructor to really figure out where he stands and what he can do. This isn't a bad thing.

To my mind, most rank post-black belt is more a matter of establishing an organizational structure. Organizations need that, but 10 degrees of black belt is much more than is needed. It suffices to have Instructors (like 1st degree black belt), Senior Instructors (like 5th degree black belt), and a Chief Instructor (like 10th degree black belt). If some org. feels it needs an intermediate rank in there, before or after Senior Instructor, or an Associate Instructor rank (like brown belt), that's fine. But I have no idea what the difference between a 7th and 8th degree black belt is, other than time-in-grade. I do know that each organization needs a CEO, though, and that you can't compare the CEO of McDonald's to the CEO of a five-chain local restaurant.

Some are worth more than others, but at the end of the day, experience and ability count for more than any piece of paper or number.

Everyone says that, but they still want their:

*High School Diploma ("It's just a piece of paper for 12 years of sitting there!")
*College Degree ("It's what you know that counts!")
*Driver's License ("I'm only 15 but I drive better than most 30 year olds!")
*Marriage Certificate ("We don't need a piece of paper to prove our love!")
*[SIZE=-1]MCSE Certification [/SIZE]("I don't need Microsoft to tell me what I know!")
[SIZE=-1]*Teacher's License [/SIZE]("Good teachers are born, not made!")
*Welding Certificate ("I learned all I need to know about this from my Daddy!")
*CPA ("I can do your taxes for you--trust me!")
*Black Belt ("I can fight better than some paper tiger!")

So, I'm not so sure what you say is true. In some circumstances experience and ability will for , but try to get a job teaching Judo at the YMCA (or community college, or military base, etc.) based solely on the fact that you're very, very good at throwing people.

If only ability counted and not the piece of paper, the University of Phoenix, which offers degrees of such low quality that many employers won't reimburse for them (their MBA is usually deried as an MBA-Lite), would go out of business. By the way, its founder, John Sperling, is now #83 on the list of richest people in the world, at $1.8 Billion.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

"but try to get a job teaching Judo at the YMCA (or community college, or military base, etc.) based solely on the fact that you're very, very good at throwing people."

But, when i walk in there with my 6th dan in fugu-ryu karate-te, my 3rd sash in shanghai style kung-fu, and 10th dan in Kunga-te, with my stylish certifications, see my website with all my 'known' martial arts buddies like Chuck Norris, I'm sure they will be in awe of my mad-ninja-skillz. After all, how much checking will they really do?

Oh, my cert?

It's legit btw.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Of course, my cert isn't, but to someone who doesn't know any better....it looks legit.

I agree with you on the keeping track of students. When properly done, it's just like any grade in a school, white is kindergarten, yellow is 1st grade, etc. Done wrong, well, suddenly we have GM's playing with Klingon weapons in a serious manner and naive students following along. People get hurt that way, especially when they see those magical words "grandmaster" or a high numeric rank that implies true mastery.

 

[IWishToLearn]

Yes, but Harvard is a good school, too.

ROFL!!!!

 

[Tames D]

The only thing I have come across in both Taiji and Xingyi is there may be an advanced class and you need to know certain forms before you get to it.

Currently, Taiji, I am in a small class and sifu just knows as do the rest of us, but there really are no pecking order. There are those that sifu has help there are those that he puts in his advanced class and there are some that stay after for additional lessons. But it is all up to sifu and it works rather well

Sanda, is a class of me so there is no pecking order beyond Sifu and me and I do not think I want to forget that.

Xingyi had no pecking order beyond Sifu and then students and you do NOT want to forget that in this class.

Back when I was in a much larger CMA school there was no real pecking order per the Sifu, again there were those that helped teach and those that didn't. However I did notice in this school, since it was considerably larger, there were a lot of attitudes, some based on belts they had elsewhere some based on personality.

Basically it has been my experince in CMA that in general there is the teacher and then there are students until the teacher says otherwise. But the way it originally was in my taiji class and is becoming again is the sifu IS the pecking order as it is with Sanda and Xingyi.

However CMA classes in general appear much less organized much less orderly and much more relaxed than most JMA classes you come across, for the most part.

I would think that the various levels of ability of the students would be obvious after a short period. And maybe this would establish a pecking order?