Independent school's validity of rank once a member is expelled

[Daniel Sullivan]

I thought I'd break this off into a separate thread, as it really was unrelated to the OP in the ITF thread.

Here's a question: do they still outrank him? From what I understand, the school is independent, so rank is only valid within the school. If they are no longer members of the school and have been banned from entry, is their rank still valid?

IIRC, bluewaveschool said they were third dans and he is a second dan. Even if it's "only" a school certificate they'd still out rank him unless their rank was specifically stripped from them, IMO. If this isn't the case then I can't understand why they were showing up "demanding" anything in the first place. Even if they are senior to him their actions are pathetic and indicate a real lack of character.

I don't know how common a practice that is across the Taekwon-Do world but in almost 25 years I know of only one person who was demoted in rank and one who was stripped of rank but different schools or organizations might do things differently.

The whole question of whether their rank is valid now that they no longer train is an interesting one and depends on what rank is an indicator of (stupid sentence ending proposition!).

Note: I do not mean time in practice or general skill, whatever it may be; that is independent of rank.

Daniel

Indeed.

Pax,

Chris

So the question is this: if you are expelled from an independent school, are you automatically considered stripped of rank? Or must a formal revocation of one's rank be performed in addition? Or does it vary from school to school?

Thoughts?

Daniel

 

[Flying Crane]

I don't know anything about the TKD world, but in my opinion, once rank is given, it CANNOT be taken away.

A member can be expelled from a school or organization, and the org can state that, we no longer recognize this person, he is not affiliated with us. But to deny the rank he was given is a lie.

Likewise, the individual can honestly state that he was ranked as X with YZ school or AB organization, as long as he is also honest in stating that he is no longer a member or affiliated with that group.

If you remain a member of a school or Org, then I guess you gotta play by their rules. If you piss someone off and he says, I'm taking away your rank, you have two choices: either stay with the org and accept the demotion (their rules, after all), or leave the org and refuse to allow them to demote you.

If you have not been training and your skills have diminished, I think some honesty is in order as well. But that doesn't make the rank disappear.

What if the "grandmaster" or "head of organization" stops training, and his skills diminish? Who gets to take away his rank? Is he above the law?

At any rate, as long as everyone is honest about the situation, I don't see a problem either way. But the short answer is, in my opinion once rank is given, it cannot be revoked.

 

[LuckyKBoxer]

ya I agree, you can not retake rank back.
If a certificate is awarded that has valid signatures on it then its a done deal unless the person gives the certificate back and agrees to be stripped of rank.

what can be done?

a person can be stripped of the recognition of the school or organization
a person can be banished and considered a non entity
a person can be have lies told about him never having recieved rank.

but you cant unring that bell.
but really it doesnt matter, there is nothing from stopping me from going out and making a certificate claiming I am a tenth degree master in any art.
I cant claim I am a member of any organization, but I can claim to be a high ranking master of any art that doesnt have a copyright on it.
Also as long as I am clear about what I am providing, and providing it to anyone paying me money then I cant get into any trouble for doing it.

That is one of the problems with martial arts in my opinion... and I dont see anyway to change that without creating many more problems.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I suppose that it depends on how rank is used at the school. Keep in mind that we're talking independent schools. This was split off from another TKD thread, but can easily apply to any independent school of any art.

If 'rank' is used as a measure of where one is in the curriculum, then I would agree that stripping of rank is rather pointless.

However, if rank is representative of one's standing within the school/organization, then stripping of rank is not pointless, as an expelled student/instructor has no standing within the organization.

I am not a big fan of demotions unless one's rank is not tied to their skill/time in grade. The only time that I see a demotion as being appropriate is if the individual's rank was obtained in some dishonest fashion (such as falsifying rank with one organization/school in order to obtain that rank in another organiztion/school of the same art).

I think that a school/organization can have distinctive administrative/functional titles that are independent of rank as well. Thus, one could lose the position of head instructor, but his/her dan grade would be unaffected.

Daniel

 

[StudentCarl]

Validity of rank and stripping it are two different things and are not connected.

I think rank should match what you can do where you go (your new setting). Long ago I was a red belt at an ATA school. When I joined a WTF school the question was at what level I knew the KKW curriculum. I didn't, so I started as a white belt. Having a good foundation helped me progress more quickly than true beginners to TKD.

We had someone show up with a KKW 1st dan cert who hadn't trained in almost 3 years. He was allowed to wear his black belt but must relearn a great deal before he's eligible to progress any further. He performed technically at about a green belt level at first, but my master accepted the KKW ranking and challenged the student to prove it through training.

 

[chrispillertkd]

Keep in mind that we're talking independent schools.

Does it matter if the school is independent or part of a larger organization? Why would rank from an independent school be considered to be "automatically" stripped from someone if they were expelled from that school? If it is because that rank is seen as a credential then perhaps so but then the same could be said for rank from someone expelled from a larger organization (and credentialling can be independent of someone physical skills).

I will say, as I have posted elsewhere on MT, if rank isn't important than it can not only be given freely it can also be revoked freely. Even frivilously. If it's not important, it's not important.

Pax,

Chris

 

[miguksaram]

If you are expelled, that doesn't automatically mean you are stripped of rank. It just means you are not longer allowed back into that school. As for rank being it stripped, why not? It happens all the time in the military. It can be revoked to. Now the knowledge can never be taken away, but the rank can. Now the question is what does that mean overall? Is it the proverbial scarlet letter? How many people have come into your school with a black belt and right away you called their old school to see if it was legit?

Overall in the school itself, if a guy is stripped of rank then he no long out ranks you. Just like in the military. I could be a SSgt. then screw up and get knock down to Pvt. Guess what, a snot nose Cpl. will out rank me.

 

[Earl Weiss]

I thought I'd break this off into a separate thread, as it really was unrelated to the OP in the ITF thread.


So the question is this: if you are expelled from an independent school, are you automatically considered stripped of rank? Or must a formal revocation of one's rank be performed in addition? Or does it vary from school to school?

Thoughts?

Daniel

Maybe you should ask GM Sun Duc Son.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Does it matter if the school is independent or part of a larger organization? Why would rank from an independent school be considered to be "automatically" stripped from someone if they were expelled from that school?

Just to clarify, I was not saying that rank from an indie would be automatically stripped upon expultion.

I said 'keep in mind, we're talking about independent schools' because the answer probably varries from school to school, and thus, there is more than just one answer.

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Maybe you should ask GM Sun Duc Son.

I suppose that he believed that rank could be stripped, though would that have been in the context of an independent school?

Daniel

 

[chrispillertkd]

Just to clarify, I was not saying that rank from an indie would be automatically stripped upon expultion.

I said 'keep in mind, we're talking about independent schools' because the answer probably varries from school to school, and thus, there is more than just one answer.

Daniel

Ahh, got it. My comment was more in response to your question: "if you are expelled from an independent school, are you automatically considered stripped of rank?" I took that to be kind of the premise from which you were working. My only answer to this question, however, is, why would it be? There certainly can be reasons for it to be taken away, if it's a credentialling device, but I wouldn't say that from an independent school it would be automatically revoked (if for no other reason than I'm sure some people running independent schools don't view it as I described it above; and I'm not convinced that is all it is myself I was just using it as an example).

Pax,

Chris

 

[dancingalone]

There is a black belt in my karate lineage who has been "unwelcomed" by my teacher. He still has his rank but he is no longer invited to participate in any gatherings such as our annual gasshaku, and of course my teacher no longer recognizes him as his student.

It's a difficult situation for me since we are friends, coming up the ranks together, so I'm in the middle of it between my friend and my teacher. I won't get into what he did to earn the ire of my teacher, but the shunning is deserved.

I know my friend is trying to find another Goju-ryu group to affiliate with, but it's a shame really. He'll have a hard time matching the quality of information he used to have access to. And of course any reference check made to my teacher or to any of the instructors under him like me will inevitably say 'Yes, he earned a sandan with us. No, he is not in good standing with our group.' Not a great help for something interested in furthering his studies in legitimate Okinawan karate as when you get past the student dan ranks, your connections become more and more important.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Ahh, got it. My comment was more in response to your question: "if you are expelled from an independent school, are you automatically considered stripped of rank?" I took that to be kind of the premise from which you were working. My only answer to this question, however, is, why would it be? There certainly can be reasons for it to be taken away, if it's a credentialling device, but I wouldn't say that from an independent school it would be automatically revoked (if for no other reason than I'm sure some people running independent schools don't view it as I described it above; and I'm not convinced that is all it is myself I was just using it as an example).

Pax,

Chris

D'oh!! I probably should have titled the thread differently, but its too late to edit.

Daniel

 

[searcher]

I have only seen this happen a few times(4 to be exact) and the "rank stripping" was more for the satisfaction of the head instructor then anything else.

3 of the times were for the students stealing from the instructor or other students. The other was for the student and his wife getting involved with the divorce of the head instructors son which led to them talking poorly of the head instructor and the school. I allowed that guy to come to my school(same lineage as mine that school) and start helping with classes and to continue his training. He later went behind my back to the powers that be and got me removed from my location where I was teaching, a YMCA. I expelled him from my school and talked to the head instructor about what happened. This same individual now has no way to progress and nobody from our school that has their own dojo will have nothing to do with him. I did not "strip" him of his rank, I just closed off all avenues for him to progress any further within that lineage/school. He now runs the program that I built up in the next town over. He is not licensed through us to teach(I was working him that direction) nor does he have a rank that we consider for an instructor. His program is 1/4 of what it was when I had it and is getting ever smaller.

IMO, if you strip rank, you would have to pull the knowledge imparted to them out of their head along with it. It is impossible to do in any sense.

Expell them, strike them from your records, cut them off,........ whatever you feel you need to do, but don't think you can strip them of teir rank. It is a waste of time.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Now here is a question: would you still consider an expelled student to be a senior with regards to those who are ranked lower, but still in good standing in the school? That was the impetus of the original exchange.

In my opinion, it would depend upon the circumstances of the ban/expultion.

Daniel

 

[dancingalone]

Now here is a question: would you still consider an expelled student to be a senior with regards to those who are ranked lower, but still in good standing in the school? That was the impetus of the original exchange.

Personally, no. They have lost their place in the ryu-ha, even if they still have the skills and knowledge they learned at the school. It's almost like they are now a martial artist from another organization - someone to be civil, even polite to, but the students have no sempai/kohai relationship to someone expelled. This is as it should be. A disassociated person can have no standing within the ryu-ha.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Personally, no. They have lost their place in the ryu-ha, even if they still have the skills and knowledge they learned at the school. It's almost like they are now a martial artist from another organization - someone to be civil, even polite to, but the students have no sempai/kohai relationship to someone expelled. This is as it should be. A disassociated person can have no standing within the ryu-ha.

As a general rule, I agree. In the case of Bluewaveschool's situation, I definitely would agree with you.

Daniel

 

[dancingalone]

As a general rule, I agree. In the case of Bluewaveschool's situation, I definitely would agree with you.

That was an odd situation bluewaveschool described. Presumably if one of my seniors came to town and demanded my school, it's not like any of my students would suddenly say OK and switch. Teaching is about personal relationships. Seems like a rocky way to start off a first lesson, you know?

Anyway, can you give an example where you might think an expelled person should still keep their seniority over their juniors?

 

[puunui]

Anyway, can you give an example where you might think an expelled person should still keep their seniority over their juniors?

I still consider GM SON Duk Sung my Chung Do Kwan senior, so much so that I tried to send GM Son a christmas card and/or calendar for maybe ten years. The first year he accepted, and after that he refused them and had it sent back.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Anyway, can you give an example where you might think an expelled person should still keep their seniority over their juniors?

Not so much that they would keep their seniority over students in the school as being considered senior in the art.

A school that I am acquainted with suffered a split in the instructional staff. No real wrongdoing or underhandedness on the part of anyone involved; just a personality clash that went way to far and by the time all involved realized that enough was too much, it was too late.

Nobody was banned from the school grounds, but the situation was awkward and uncomfortable enough that the departed staff were not going to come back.

Students who were there at the time and train in the one place still consider the staff who were asked to leave to be senior in the art and try to to maintain a low profile relationship with a valued but departed instructor.

While the departed instructor has no authority within the old school, students who trained with them still value them as senior hapkidoin.

Daniel