Does one's skill flow from the kata?

[Wes Tasker]

Danny-

Everything is good here, likewise - I hope all is well with you. Seeing as you said you don't want to get into a discussion regarding the semantics of our approaches, I won't reply to your points. I guess it's safe to say that we have differing opinions on the ultimate "role" of forms in training. And our own peculiar "speech acts" to express ourselves. Take care.

-wes tasker

 

[BlackCatBonz]

1.I would say you are using Kata esoterically.
2.I am using the kata as a list or catalog.
3.We all know or should know intrinsic of kata all movement, posture, and transition has multiple connotations, each being dependent upon one's relationship with the opponent, spatially as well as kinetically. Within these connotations are the simple as well as the often so called secret techniques.(I don't believe in secret techniques, they are all there hidden in plain view.) The empty hand as well as many of the weapon aspects also. However, simply doing Kata one will never see the implied possibilities. Associated drills must be utilized also. I’m certain this is done. However, drills are not kata, or at least in my opinion.
4.In one of the systems I teach the first form appears to be only a hand and structure form. It is the lowest level form for the beginner yet at the highest level in the system the very same form is the most advanced.
5.Yet it is only a catalog or listing of the positions implying much more. The movements of any form are only that movement. 6.Understanding the applications and being able to perform them in real time against a resisting opponent is not the same thing.
7.Kata, in my opinion will never train a person to function with a high level of performance in a combat situation.

Danny Terrell

1. i wouldnt call the way i do it "esoteric". Kata has many colours and it is important to explore all aspects of it. it teaches the things that are needed for creating good habits, under a knowledgable teacher of course. Looking at kata and being able to come up with application is the tip of the iceberg.
2. kata or forms can be a list. but one could just as easily break the kata down to their specific techniques and do away with the forms altogether.
for instance, if i am a karate practitioner, i could just as easily break down pinan shodan into gedan barai, oi-zuki, shuto, age uke and uraken tsuki. there is the start of my list for individual techniques. if i were to practice them as such.....i might develop some really good power and form with each individually, but my ability to transition and combine would suffer immensely.
3. when one first starts to learn forms it is important to forget about imagining an opponent or learning the "hidden" aspects(IMO that is). this leads to forgetting proper form, and that is what a kata is really about. A person needs to learn how to move by themselves before they can really apply it to a situation that involves another person. it would be kind of like me teaching someone how to write words but leaving out the part about sentence structure and then telling them to write a book (out would like something come it this).
4. that is the funny thing about kata.......the better you get, the less you find out you know about even the simplest form.
5. it may be just movement.....but movement is the heart of martial arts.
6. if someone tells me they understand the application but then they cant put it into action.....im seeing someone who is telling me they dont understand the application.
7. well.....you are entitled to your opinion.

 

[Jonathan Randall]

As to what the lady instructor said I belive that she had most likely reached a stage in her training whe she truly felt the flow of the movment within the techniques and most likely knew she could flow form what she ws doing into something else whith out thinking about it.
There comes a time in the doing of a form (for some people) where time and space seem to mean nothing and they ( as the saying goes) become one with the form. Not saying this happens to everyone or that it happnes to one person all the time but it is a moment when the body, mind,spirt all seem to join with in the movement of the form.
Think she may also have been hinting that there is more to some of the old katas than first is seen on taught

That was my take on the situation. Just because she emphasized the importance of kata does NOT mean that she is unaware of MMA and the UFC - simply that she has aquired a level of depth and experience that allow her deeper insights than the average 19 year old who dreams of fighting in the next UFC. Kata, good kata, at least, is full of lessons for a student. Does this mean that it is a complete substitute for getting on the mat with a resisting opponent - of course not! The two are not mutually exclusive, either.

Why does it have to be one way or the other (to not kata or to kata)? How about a balance between the two, forms and sparring?

 

[OnlyAnEgg]

In all the years I've played trombone, I've never encountered an 8 note scale in a piece of music; however, having practiced countless scales, I was well prepared whenever I got a new chart.

Kata is the same kind of thing.

 

[Henderson]

God, I love this place! The analogies are priceless! Whether I agree with them or not, somebody always comes up with a new way to compare what we're discussing.

Respects,

Frank

 

[MJS]

That was my take on the situation. Just because she emphasized the importance of kata does NOT mean that she is unaware of MMA and the UFC - simply that she has aquired a level of depth and experience that allow her deeper insights than the average 19 year old who dreams of fighting in the next UFC. Kata, good kata, at least, is full of lessons for a student. Does this mean that it is a complete substitute for getting on the mat with a resisting opponent - of course not! The two are not mutually exclusive, either.

Why does it have to be one way or the other (to not kata or to kata)? How about a balance between the two, forms and sparring?

Good point Jon. I suppose its all how one reads that first post. When I first read it, I took it as she was saying that you only needed to focus on kata and that will provide all the secrets. However, she could have meant that in addition to the other things, also focus on the kata.

Mike

 

[Jade Tigress]

It does it so well that it hinders many practitioners. The moves are so ingrained that when the opponent does something different or “in the wrong way” the kata practitioner does the same move they have working over and over exactly the way the kata did. Problem is, it is now exactly the wrong move.

I completely disagree with this. Again, it goes back to the understanding of forms.

In all the years I've played trombone, I've never encountered an 8 note scale in a piece of music; however, having practiced countless scales, I was well prepared whenever I got a new chart.

Kata is the same kind of thing.

This is what it's all about (Bold mine.)

 

[tshadowchaser]

a kata dose not teach (true people teach) but one can learn from a karta just as on learns from a combination or one step I think the lady said that people can become slaves of a technique if they do not do forms. I belive she implied that if you pactice movement/tech/one step and only do it the same way every time you may not be able to varry it when the time comes
I think most of agree that kata is only one part of any art and that the whole art is composed of many different parts to make a whole.

Now I know that in todays world techniques ( no matter what you call them) are taught as a quick fix so a student can learn self defence in a hurry. It takes years of training and study to find more than what is shown on the surface of some foms. Techniques are also a way for the modern instructor to pad what he is teaching so it looks like there is more to a system then sparring and forms and todays students always want to think they are learning something new and want to be spoon fed techniques not have to look for them .

 

[Jonathan Randall]

Good point Jon. I suppose its all how one reads that first post. When I first read it, I took it as she was saying that you only needed to focus on kata and that will provide all the secrets. However, she could have meant that in addition to the other things, also focus on the kata.

Mike

You're right, it could have gone either way depending upon the context. I read from it (perhaps due to my own viewpoint) that she was just one more Karate Sensei tired of being told that Katas are no good and that the UFC and BJJ is everything.

However, there still are some out there who do think that Kata is everything and not just the powerful training tool it can be. Probably we'd have to have been there to know which way she stood.

 

[AlwaysTraining]

Allow me to clarify. Based on what I know of this woman, I believe she thinks that all aspects of training are equally important, to include kata. However, a deep and profound understanding of the kata and all of the movements contained within will propel the practitioner to a much higher level of understanding and in turn make him/her a greater fighter.

 

[jujutsu_indonesia]

Well. Imagine this. Back then in Okinawa there were no DVD players, no VHS videos and many karate students were illiterate peasants.

Amongst ancient Asian people, especially amongst the illiterates, it is well known that song, poetry and dance are the usual form of communications to pass common wisdom to the next generations.

Karate kata is basically a form of dance, and it is also a way to teach the entire system and its traditions to the next generations. (somehow song and poetry are less effective as a medium to pass Karate knowledge )

You can kick, punch, block and fight effectively without Kata, no doubt about it, but it won't be Karate

 

[Zero]

here is the short reply to your post.
understanding kata includes the big picture and being able to read between the lines.

The big picture is always who wins the fight - be it in the ring or on the street - really when it comes to martial arts (arts of war/fighting) that's all there is to it.

Hey of course I do kata and have done so for many years and to be honest I would prefer to sit on the fence on this one but in my heart of hearts I know that a brilliant, deadly fighter doesn't need to have any kata training and I have never felt that kata has had any influence on my fighting ability, I have won my fights through sparring and more sparring (and by sparring I 'm meaning fighting just below full contact level), competition after competion and years practicing on the bag/trees...whatever to build up power and understanding of technique application. - kata is a second rate way to gain understanding of correct technique application.

I think the real question is not about kata and what kata is but a more fundamental one - what is karate/ the martial arts all about?
These were initially brought about by guys needing to defend their lives and to pass these same life-saving (and often as a result life-ending) skills to others.

Is that not what karate is still about? That's sure my view - and no I'm not some psycho looking for trouble on every corner but karate to me is honing yourself into the best fighter you can be. Sure, discipline, fitness etc are all by-products (and necessary requirements) of this training.

But it seems karate is being turned into some 'philosophy' or zen-spirituality gig.

Spending most - or even half of every class on kata is not going to get you the same fighting ability level as spending the time actually applying moves under stress and finding out what it actually means to hit someone in a particular way or to be hit.

 

[exile]

Spending most - or even half of every class on kata is not going to get you the same fighting ability level as spending the time actually applying moves under stress and finding out what it actually means to hit someone in a particular way or to be hit.

Zero, I'd rather not repeat my points from the earlier kataless karate thread; I've pointed out in http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=35565&page=7&highlight=kataless why this is an essentially false distinction you're making. AlwaysTraining, you have to realize that kata have nothing to do with spirituality/philosophyy/mysticism/choreography or any other red herring of that sort. They are compact summaries of fighting skills `written' in body-movement at a time when people, for familiar reasons, liked to avoid committing MA techs to writing. Skill does flow from kata, but only from kata analyzed into the most realistic practical bunkai and trained for oyo under uber-realistic conditions. Not sparring, not one-steps (though one-steps are useful as `slow-mo' versions of what you need top be able to do under high speed conditions) but realistic training conditions of the kind that Iain Abernethy described in his chapter on bunkai-based training in his book Bukai-Jutsu: the Practical Applications of Karate Kata.

Check out Bill Burgar's Five Years, One Kata to see what Burgar, a sixth dan in Isshin-ryu karata discovered after spending five years working out the bunkai of a single kata, Gojushiho, and learning how the techs encoded in that kata apply to the most common initiating acts of violence in street conflicts; or Rick Clark's 75 Down Blocks for insight on how to read individual kata moves, as their inventors intended them, before they were repackaged as relatively innocent blocks and punches. What you'll see is that trying to learn effective karate practice for street use (regardless of the karate style, Japanese, Okinawan, Korean (TKD and TSD being legitimately described, as in S. Henry Cho's great textbook on TKD, as Korean karate) or whatever) without kata is similar to trying to learn a language you've never heard before by just standing there and trying to make sense of people talking to you in that language. Using the kata as the basis of fighting techs is like using sophisticated 2nd language training techniques in addition to full immersion in the language (the analogy being to Abernethy-style realistic training). There's no guarantee, on the first approach, that you'll ever get it, because you have no clue about the rules of word combination that yield sentences, and their meaning, in the language you're trying to learn. On the second approach, you get skeleton keys to those rule that let you bootstrap your understanding of what these at-first meaningless bursts of sound are so that they become intelligible—if you also participate in conversation in an immersion setting. The two approaches not only complement each other: they form a completely unitary approach to language learning. And the situation is exactly the same with the kata-bunkai-training relationship.

Please don't shortchange yourself by adopting the know-nothing position that kata are just a ritualized dance unconnected to actual combat. The guys who created modern kata—Bushi Matsumura and Anko Itosu in particular—were completely no-nonsense guys who fought dangerous streetfights for much of their lives and were, by profession, the chief bodyguards to the last king of Okinawa; their kata were their manuals for success in those fights, `written' for their students and the training of other fighters in their group at Shuri Castle. Philosophy, spirituality and so on were the last things on their mind; Matsumura's linear karate—and in those days, as Abernethy and Burgar explain carefully, the kata weren't simply part of the jutsu art, they were regarded as the jutsu art—was a brutally effective innovation that displaced the chuan-fa-based MAs prevalent in Okinawa at the time and gave the king's bodyguards and LEOs a new and scarily effective fighting system, which they used pitilessly and convincingly.

Somewhere in Karate Valhalla, the shades of Matsumura, Itosu, Motobu and other great fighters are listening to your query and urging you to study the approach to kata they pioneered and and train what you learn in their own hard style of training.... don't ignore the lessons they're trying to teach you... :wink1:

 

[exile]

As a PS to my previous post #33 in this thread, AT, take a look at this terrific clip on kata bunkai and training posted by Brian van Cise—it illustrates perfectly why kata, in particular understanding the apps encoded in them, are a crucial part of MA training. Listen carefully to the voiceover in the background; the explanations of how to relate kata motions to CQ self-defense moves are absolutely on target.

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=48040

 

[chinto]

I agree that kata is the heart of Karate. It is essential to understanding the art. However, much of what I have seen that is called "kata" now-a-days seems to be modern dance routines with a martial art flair. The old basic (some might say boring) kata are where the art is at, not the modern gymnastic spectacles seen at many tournements these days.

I have to Agree! the "modern kata" you see some times on TV as part of "XMA" and such with gymnastics and other added are not practical for combat techniques in my humble Opinion. the old Traditional kata that have been unchanged and unmodified are where its at!! they are not flashy, they are called boring by some, but so very rich in meaning if you will just look beyond the serfice. Remember, practice the kata of the system constiantly and as perfictly as you can and if needed in an altercation or even in sparring you will find that that technique, movement from a kata will "just happen"! mushun..( no mind) and it is very very cool when it does!

 

[chinto]

I would say you are using Kata esoterically. I am using the kata as a list or catalog. We all know or should know intrinsic of kata all movement, posture, and transition has multiple connotations, each being dependent upon one's relationship with the opponent, spatially as well as kinetically. Within these connotations are the simple as well as the often so called secret techniques.(I don't believe in secret techniques, they are all there hidden in plain view.) The empty hand as well as many of the weapon aspects also. However, simply doing Kata one will never see the implied possibilities. Associated drills must be utilized also. I’m certain this is done. However, drills are not kata, or at least in my opinion. In one of the systems I teach the first form appears to be only a hand and structure form. It is the lowest level form for the beginner yet at the highest level in the system the very same form is the most advanced. Yet it is only a catalog or listing of the positions implying much more. The movements of any form are only that movement. What is possible within the movement is the treasure. I understand this. I would even be so bold as to say I could watch most any kata and give some detailed applications of the movements. They may or may not be what any one systems kata may be attempting to display but within the movement I can give a possibility. I say possibility because the techniques are not absolute but are based upon the circumstances. This is within any kata. Again that is the treasure of the kata. If the practitioner is taught properly they will be able to see and understand the implication quickly. Once that is done we drill, drill, and spar, returning to the form only as a reminder or reference of possibilities. There are Forms, Drills, and Applications and more often than not the applications don't look like the forms or the drills. Understanding the applications and being able to perform them in real time against a resisting opponent is not the same thing. Kata, in my opinion will never train a person to function with a high level of performance in a combat situation. Having an understanding of principles, you know how to apply them for the creation of technique. Great. That is what your training should help you with. Can you do it at real time under the pressure and stress of physical combat? Maybe I have only been associated with novice practitioners. I find the ability to function in combat comes from experience. Other than actually going out and fighting or stepping into a sport fight arena, the best thing to get expeience is to spar.

Danny Terrell

sparring will help with distance and timeing, but if you work on bunkai and analizing the kata as well as doing them, you will find that there is a great deal hidden under the surfice of the kata. there should in most of the old traditional kata be at least 5 techniques for every movement in the kata. some are graples and some locks and some throws or brakes, and of course strikes of diferent types. look beyond just the most basic kihon interpitation of the movements and you will be suprised what is there.

 

[Zero]

I wish I could find this stuff, I went researching Abanathy but couldn't get my hands on his book on kata-application no-nonsense style.

It's not that I don't have a space for kata, it's just not a priority. And maybe that's from the club I primarily practiced at back home. Two of the seniors/sensie (one a 4th-dan 5 times national heavywieght champion and the other an unbelievebaly good mma fighter - who also trains the girl who won kata gold last year!) told me that they didn't need kata (although good at it) to win fights and I should not overly concern myself with it outside of grading requirements if my main focus is on fighting and full contact.

 

[exile]

I wish I could find this stuff, I went researching Abanathy but couldn't get my hands on his book on kata-application no-nonsense style.

Zero, there's stuff on-line you can get—a ton of it. I'd be glad to supply you with the URLs—I have a stack of his papers and articles on my desk in front of me even as we type, all downloaded 100% free from his public access site.

IIt's not that I don't have a space for kata, it's just not a priority. And maybe that's from the club I primarily practiced at back home. Two of the seniors/sensie (one a 4th-dan 5 times national heavywieght champion and the other an unbelievebaly good mma fighter - who also trains the girl who won kata gold last year!) told me that they didn't need kata (although good at it) to win fights and I should not overly concern myself with it outside of grading requirements if my main focus is on fighting and full contact.

Kata are brilliant if you want to use your karate not for the ring, but for a fight in a bar or parking lot. They were designed as instructional materials for people to use in typical violent assaults when weapons weren't available. Don't shortchange yourself—why not at least look at some of what IA has to say and see how they work?

I've got some other stuff to do now for a couple of hours, but later tonight I will send you as many URLs for Abernethy's stuff and anything else in my `library' that looks good. They're very well written xtrmshock) and have good graphics. You be the judge.

 

[Sukerkin]

An excellent series of linked posts there, Exile. A nice and gentle way to put across the concept that kata are instruments of training that were put together by the chaps who invented the Arts in the first place.

It beffudles me that they have come to be thought of as unnecessary .

To put an other slant on it, here's a question for those that use firearms, as well as practise MA, to answer.

Do you consider the rounds you shoot on the range, as opposed to 'tactical shooting', to be wasted rounds?

It's exactly the same relationship between kata and sparring. One teaches you how to do it right, the other teaches you how to get an acceptable result when conditions don't allow you to do it perfectly. ... but you can't do the latter without the former.

 

[exile]

To put an other slant on it, here's a question for those that use firearms, as well as practise MA, to answer.

Do you consider the rounds you shoot on the range, as opposed to 'tactical shooting', to be wasted rounds?

It's exactly the same relationship between kata and sparring. One teaches you how to do it right, the other teaches you how to get an acceptable result when conditions don't allow you to do it perfectly. ... but you can't do the latter without the former.

Great analogy, Mark! If people think carefully about it they'll see that the two cases are quite parallel.