Funakoshi was Mabuni's junior?

[Miles]

I just viewed Tsunami Production's "Shito-Ryu Karate-The Island Of Budo."

In the early part of the tape, the narrator says that Mabuni Sensei was senior to Funakoshi Sensei. I find this hard to believe as Funakoshi was much older and started training with Itosu Sensei before Mabuni.

Does anyone know why Mabuni would be considered senior?

Miles

 

[madfrank]

Hi

Well Funakoshi taught schoolchildren as he was a school teacher.

The style he taught which became shotokan was developed by Master Itosu for school children.

There is debate as to whether funakoshi knew adult karate or just the childrens version.

He never taught it to the Japanese, he just taught them the watered down schoolboy stuff..

This may be why he was considered junior to Mabuni.

MF

 

[Danjo]

Hi

Well Funakoshi taught schoolchildren as he was a school teacher.

The style he taught which became shotokan was developed by Master Itosu for school children.

There is debate as to whether funakoshi knew adult karate or just the childrens version.

He never taught it to the Japanese, he just taught them the watered down schoolboy stuff..

This may be why he was considered junior to Mabuni.

MF

Well, it seems that the schoolboy Karate was good enough for Mas Oyama. At least he didn't run Funakoshi down:

"In 1938, at the young age of fifteen, Oyama wanted to serve the country he now called home and therefore joined Japan's Yamanashi Youth Air Force Academy with the intentions of becoming a pilot. In September of this same year, Oyama became a student of Gichin Funakoshi, Shotokan Karate founder, at the Takushoku University. Funakoshi, a school teacher from Okinawa, was credited with introducing karate to Japan. It is this man that Oyama later would refer to as his true karate teacher. Throughout the years Oyama always spoke highly of Funakoshi, remarking in later recollections of his gentle yet overwhelming presence. Oyama went on to say that of the many things he learned from Funakoshi, kata (formal exercises) was the most important. "

 

[Miles]

The style he taught which became shotokan was developed by Master Itosu for school children.

There is debate as to whether funakoshi knew adult karate or just the childrens version.

He never taught it to the Japanese, he just taught them the watered down schoolboy stuff..

This may be why he was considered junior to Mabuni.

MF

So you are saying that Itosu taught a different karate to Funakoshi that he taught to Mabuni? Or was Mabuni's primary influence Higaonna? Regardless, I always thought the junior/senior relationship was based on when someone started their training...

RE: Mas Oyama-Danjo, if you've not already seen it, suggest you see the Korean movie "Fighter In The Wind." It is a loose biography of Mas Oyama with pretty decent (albeit short ) fight scenes and a really well done section about his training in the mountains.

Miles

 

[madfrank]

Hi

I know Oyama trained with Funakoshi in his younger days.

But Mas Oyama's Karate is nothing like Funakoshis.

Oyama did full contact stuff and the hundred man fights, there is nothing like this in Shotokan.

Funakoshi may have known the real stuff as I alluded to in my above post but he never taught it to the Japanese, Oyama wasn't Japanese.

The Okinawans were essentially prisoners of the Japanese for most of their history.

Why would they terach them the good oil?

MF

 

[Danjo]

Hi

I know Oyama trained with Funakoshi in his younger days.

But Mas Oyama's Karate is nothing like Funakoshis.

Oyama did full contact stuff and the hundred man fights, there is nothing like this in Shotokan.

Funakoshi may have known the real stuff as I alluded to in my above post but he never taught it to the Japanese, Oyama wasn't Japanese.

The Okinawans were essentially prisoners of the Japanese for most of their history.

Why would they terach them the good oil?

MF

Man, you're basing this on nothing. Shotokan was and is a very tough Karate. There were those like Motobu who hated Funakoshi due to his perception of Funakoshi's taking credit for a fight that Motobu had won, but for the most part Funakoshi was highly respected. The Japanese weren't stupid. They knew what good fighting was. They had Jiu Jitsu and Judo etc. and wouldn't have been sucked in to a weak form of Karate. Also, what makes you think that Oyama's being Korean would make Funakoshi teach him the "real" Karate?

 

[TimoS]

There were those like Motobu who hated Funakoshi due to his perception of Funakoshi's taking credit for a fight that Motobu had won

While that must have been part of it, there were other things that these two karate greats just didn't see eye-to-eye on. Motobu was a fighter, Funakoshi seems to me to have been more of thinker

Also, what makes you think that Oyama's being Korean would make Funakoshi teach him the "real" Karate?

That seems far fetched to me also

 

[kenpojujitsu]

Funakoshi was seen as junior to all the masters of his day. Not just Mabuni, but Miyagi, Motobu, etc.

The karate that he taught was in fact modified to meet the needs of the school children. He was not chosen to go to Japan to represent Karate because he was seen as a better Karateka than anyone. He was sent because he spoke the language and was more likely to be accepted by the Japanese.

When the Dai Nippon Butokukai accepted Karate and issued the first rankings,Fnuakoshi was given 5th Dan. Mabuni and Miyagi 7th Dan. I do not know about Motobu.

Motobu was not only angry at Funakoshi over the issue of him taking credit for the victory over the boxer. He despised Funakoshi because he saw his karate as being weak and flet he was ruining the arts reputation. Also Funakoshi was known to often bad mouth Motobu, calling him illiterate and dumb. Funakoshi saw Motobu as kind of a country bumpkin as compared to his educated, elite self. Even though in Okinawa, Motobu came from a higher class family.

Funakoshi was a very shrewd politician. Not only schmoozing with government officials, but giving them "black belt" rankings, so they had certificates to show thier friends at parties.

Funakoshi failed at a number of careers before he became a bureaucrat in the schools. And we was pretty much incompetent at running his karate organization. Technically, he was not the founder of Shotokan. His students were. They built the dojo for him and ran it. He just taught as they built the organization around him. Later it was Nakayama that made Shotokan into what it was.

Mas Oyama did train with Funakoshi. But he moved on. Konishi, the Shindo Jinen Ryu founder also trained with Funakoshi, but dropped him like hot potatoe when he met Motobu.

If not for his ability to speak Japanese at the time and his schmoozing skills, Shotokan would have remained the "school boy karate" that is always was and would never have spread beyond the school systems. But because of his pblic relations skills then, people today still look at Shotokan as some form of fighting art.

 

[Gene Williams]

...and that about covers it.

 

[Danjo]

Funakoshi was seen as junior to all the masters of his day. Not just Mabuni, but Miyagi, Motobu, etc.

Okay.

The karate that he taught was in fact modified to meet the needs of the school children. He was not chosen to go to Japan to represent Karate because he was seen as a better Karateka than anyone. He was sent because he spoke the language and was more likely to be accepted by the Japanese.

Sent by whom? Are you saying that they would send someone who was lousy at Karate merely because they spoke the language? I thought the Emperor saw Funakoshi demonstrate Karate in Okinawa and thus invited him.

When the Dai Nippon Butokukai accepted Karate and issued the first rankings,Fnuakoshi was given 5th Dan. Mabuni and Miyagi 7th Dan. I do not know about Motobu.

I don't think Motobu was given rank.

Motobu was not only angry at Funakoshi over the issue of him taking credit for the victory over the boxer. He despised Funakoshi because he saw his karate as being weak and felt he was ruining the art's reputation.

I've seen footage of Funakoshi demonstrating kata. He moved pretty well when compared to other old timers. I think his "weak" skills are exaggerations by Motobu.

Also Funakoshi was known to often bad mouth Motobu, calling him illiterate and dumb.

I think the bad mouthing started with Motobu. But you may be right here. Funakoshi did exaggerate Motobu's illiteracy.

Funakoshi failed at a number of careers before he became a bureaucrat in the schools. And we was pretty much incompetent at running his karate organization. Technically, he was not the founder of Shotokan. His students were. They built the dojo for him and ran it. He just taught as they built the organization around him. Later it was Nakayama that made Shotokan into what it was. Mas Oyama did train with Funakoshi. But he moved on.

Again I refer you to the quote about Oyama: "It is this man that Oyama later would refer to as his true karate teacher. Throughout the years Oyama always spoke highly of Funakoshi, remarking in later recollections of his gentle yet overwhelming presence."
(hardly sounds like an incompetent. But perhaps Oyama was a liar?)

Konishi, the Shindo Jinen Ryu founder also trained with Funakoshi, but dropped him like hot potatoe when he met Motobu.

I don't know anythng about this Mr. Quayle.

If not for his ability to speak Japanese at the time and his schmoozing skills, Shotokan would have remained the "school boy karate" that is always was and would never have spread beyond the school systems. But because of his public relations skills then, people today still look at Shotokan as some form of fighting art.

The fact is that the same can be said for Judo or BJJ. PR skills are often needed to get something off the ground. I think Shotokan's track record speaks for itself. It is a fighting art as are the other Karate styles.

 

[TimoS]

I've seen footage of Funakoshi demonstrating kata. He moved pretty well when compared to other old timers. I think his "weak" skills are exaggerations by Motobu.

That may be true (can't say, because I've never seen any footage of Funakoshi), but as I understood it, Motobu critized Funakoshi mainly (?) because he felt that Funakoshi's kata was more or less a "pretty dance", since Funakoshi didn't fight. Motobu himself, on the hand, was very much a fighter

PR skills are often needed to get something off the ground. I think Shotokan's track record speaks for itself. It is a fighting art as are the other Karate styles.

I agree. People skills are often underestimated, but they are needed. And yes, Shotokan is a fighting art, but only if the practitioner makes it so. This is, of course, true for every other system also

 

[arnisador]

Is there movie footage of Gichin Funakoshi in action? I've only ever seen still pictures.

 

[Andrew Green]

I've seen movie footage, very short, not too exciting, and he was very old.

As for the question as too who was senior... They where seperate styles and are now both dead. Does it make any difference?

I'd imagine the Shotokan people will claim one thing, the shito-ryu people another, and everyone else will look at them funny, as if they just asked whether Jame Kirk outranked Luke Skywalker....

 

[kenpojujitsu]

Sent by whom? Are you saying that they would send someone who was lousy at Karate merely because they spoke the language?
Mainly - yes. But he was not lousy - just inferior. It was the powerful strikes and breaking ability that impressed the Emporer, not Funakoshi's fighting skills. It was thr fighting skills of Motobu and Mabuni that impressed the Japanese.

Again I refer you to the quote about Oyama: "It is this man that Oyama later would refer to as his true karate teacher. Throughout the years Oyama always spoke highly of Funakoshi, remarking in later recollections of his gentle yet overwhelming presence."
(hardly sounds like an incompetent. But perhaps Oyama was a liar?)
He was being polite. When/where did he speak of Funakoshi's superior skills? Many incompetent people are gentle and personable.

Konishi, the Shindo Jinen Ryu founder also trained with Funakoshi, but dropped him like hot potatoe when he met Motobu.

I don't know anythng about this Mr. Quayle.
I guess you know about as much about produce as you do Karate
http://www.idaho-potatoes.com/idaho_potatoe.html


The fact is that the same can be said for Judo or BJJ.
Yes, BJJ is crap to. But they did a great job of selling it. Like P.T. Barnum said, there's one born every minute. It was not P.R. skills that sold the Japanese martial arts community on Judo. It was serious tournanment victories.

 

[Danjo]

Is there movie footage of Gichin Funakoshi in action? I've only ever seen still pictures.

There are a couple of clips here: http://www.karate-shotokan-kata.com/Karate-kata-videos.html

 

[Danjo]

Yes, BJJ is crap to. But they did a great job of selling it. Like P.T. Barnum said, there's one born every minute. It was not P.R. skills that sold the Japanese martial arts community on Judo. It was serious tournanment victories.

OOOOOOOOOOOOoookay.

 

[Miles]

Funakoshi was seen as junior to all the masters of his day. Not just Mabuni, but Miyagi, Motobu, etc.

.....

When the Dai Nippon Butokukai accepted Karate and issued the first rankings,Fnuakoshi was given 5th Dan. Mabuni and Miyagi 7th Dan. I do not know about Motobu.

First of all, welcome to MT Kenpojujitsu. Sorry for the heavy editing, but I want to be sure I understand your first statement. Since ranking came after Funakoshi (or Mabuni or Miyagi or Motobu, etc.) arrived in Japan from Okinawa, I want to distinguish that from the concept of "seniority."

I still don't understand how someone who started his training prior to Mabuni and Miyagi (who after all were about the same age and both were at least 12 yrs younger than Funakoshi) would be considered their junior. I have not read of any lapses in Funakoshi's training (though admittedly in his biography about Karate being his life, it's not likely that he'd mention any gaps).

Thanks for the responses which have been on point.

Miles

 

[kenpojujitsu]

In modern Karate classes and events, people line up by rank not by age.
The higher ranks are considered senior. It is possible for a younger person to be senior to an older person. It is also possible for a junior" to advance faster and "pass up" a senior.

When Funskoshi trained with Itosu, he trained privately and there were no rankings. So he was senior in the class to no one.

I do not know much about Mabuni's time with Itosu off the top of my head. Had there been a class with both Mabuni and Funakoshi, it would have been up to Itosu to say who was senior.

In the general Karate community, in comparing the founders of the major styles, Funakoshi was regarded as a lesser master than all the others of. He was looked upon as junior to all. The DNBK also saw it that way when assigning the first rankings. Thus, of all the founders of the day, Funakoshi was ranked the lowest.

Outside of Motobu who openly despised Funakoshi and said he thought his karate was weak and for school boys, no one came and said "Shotokan sucks" like they do now. But it is a known historical fact that his "peers" saw him as not being on par with the others - especially with Mabuni and Miyagi - this he was seen as everyone's junior.

I have seen nothing in any new writings that indicate that Funakoshi was wrongly considered to be the "junior master" of his day.

 

[jujutsu_indonesia]

Not sure why people are so keen to bash Funakoshi sensei...

He might be technically inferior to many of his friends, but this does not affect his place in history as one of the most influential Karate pioneer in the world.

Come to think about it, Otsuka sensei (Wado's founder) was amongst the first, if not THE first, Japanese student of Funakoshi. He started learning with Funakoshi sensei in early 1920s, and parted way with Funakoshi sensei in 1934, mostly due to the fact that he wants to include more effective techniques from Jujutsu into Karate. But Otsuka sensei still respect Funakoshi sensei enough that he posed as Uke for Funakoshi in Karatedo Kyohan, which was made in late 30s/early 40s.

While Otsuka sensei MIGHT have felt that the Karate system that Funakoshi taught has many "weaknesses", at least he still respect his teacher.

 

[Danjo]

Having read many articles and the book by Motobu, I think that he was a great Karate fighter. No one questions this. However, I think that his hostility towards Funakoshi and Kano came from frustration. Funakoshi, and those that were with the Dai Nippon Butokukai had a lock on Japan in terms of teaching Karate. Motobu was unable to get a great following there, and even those he did recruit, were not always able to understand him due to the language difference. He was the "High quality Mom-and-Pop store." and Funakoshi and Kano were the Wal-Mart of their times for Karate and Judo. Kano had dealt with the same attitudes towards himself from old-style Jiu Jitsu-ka who felt that Judo was too safe and tame. If things had been left to Motobu and his ilk, Karate would have stayed a back-water art known only to a few people that could personally train with the master instead of the international phenomenon it has become. Is it better to learn Karate like Motobu taught it? Probably. Is it practical? No. Funakoshi made Karate accessible to the masses. Without him, most of us would probably not know what Karate is today.