do you think kata and kiai is necessary and good in ma?

[Blade96]

I read someone say this on another forum, that kiai and kata are totally unnecessary. and maybe shouldnt even be done. but couldn't really disagree without derailing the topic. But it got me curious as to what you all think here. Do you think is is, or isnt? and why or why not?

for me, kata, I think they are good. because it shows you how to use each technique they teach you in kihon. you learn the applying the kata to opponents. (i know how heian shodan is applied for example, my senseis taught me. and I practiced the kata against a real life person, one of my bb friends, last night. well its good and i need to know it for my 8th kyu test coming up anyway. and i want to know it, isnt just a matter of, I need to.)

as for kiai i think it startles your opponent and blows their sense of control, it hardens your body for a physical strike, it puts more force into whatever strike your doing, and even a soft little kiai allows you to breathe without running out of breath (in my shotokan tournament i saw people who didnt breathe while doing their kata and when they were finished they did a forceful exhale at the end cause they'd been holding their breath)

 

[jks9199]

I read someone say this on another forum, that kiai and kata are totally unnecessary. and maybe shouldnt even be done. but couldn't really disagree without derailing the topic. But it got me curious as to what you all think here. Do you think is is, or isnt? and why or why not?

for me, kata, I think they are good. because it shows you how to use each technique they teach you in kihon. you learn the applying the kata to opponents. (i know how heian shodan is applied for example, my senseis taught me. and I practiced the kata against a real life person, one of my bb friends, last night. well its good and i need to know it for my 8th kyu test coming up anyway. and i want to know it, isnt just a matter of, I need to.)

as for kiai i think it startles your opponent and blows their sense of control, it hardens your body for a physical strike, it puts more force into whatever strike your doing, and even a soft little kiai allows you to breathe without running out of breath (in my shotokan tournament i saw people who didnt breathe while doing their kata and when they were finished they did a forceful exhale at the end cause they'd been holding their breath)

Kata serves a purpose; lots of people simply don't understand that. But it's also not the only way to train...

Kiai is a different thing entirely. It's not merely a yell; it's an internal spirit and focus of the will that can be manifested in some cases and partially by a shout. There are stories of masters stopping fights through their kiai before there was even a single strike exchanged.

 

[Kittan Bachika]

Kata serves a purpose; lots of people simply don't understand that. But it's also not the only way to train...

Forms/Kata definitely serve a purpose. Funny, some people often think that forms are useless because it looks like you are fighting air. But there is a lot more to it.

 

[Phoenix44]

Good, yes. Necessary, no.

 

[Carol]

At minimum...

Kiai trains a student how to breathe properly.

Kata is an effective way to train mind and body when you have no intstructor, partner, or gear.

Are they good? Yes.

Are they necessary? Not necessary...but in some applications it can be the most effective means of accomplishing a goal.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

In my opinion , yes they are important. You tell the average student to go home and practice a certain block 100 times and most students wont or they will just do it a couple of times. You tell a student to learn a kata/form and get it good enough to grade and they will practice that block literally thousands of times as part of the kata in order to get the kata right. This is by no means the only reason to do kata but it does help with commiting moves to muscle memory. When I am doing a lot of form all parts of my martial arts feel smoother , my sparring improves , my balance improves , my core strength improves etc. The problem is that a lot of people think it is just practicing pre determined attacks against thin air and this simply is not the case.

 

[Kittan Bachika]

I also want to add that learning forms/kata is not necessary but it is good stuff. There are other ways to learn techniques.

 

[Cirdan]

Kata and Kiai are not requiered to become good at self defense or fighting.
They are however excellent (and often misunderstood) tools if trained/used correctly.

 

[Bruno@MT]

Fight science did a documentary on how much a scream / kiai makes a difference in breaking tests. The conclusion was that because of the pyhsical effects (contraction of core muscle groups) neurological / hormonal effects (triggered adrenalin release) and psychological effect (improving focus), the measurable difference was about 25% in released power.

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So it definitely has an effect. It also has a psychological effect on the opponent, but that is perhaps less tangible and subject to more variation.

As for kata: it's a training tool. If used properly and for the right purpose, it can help with form, movement and flow. Kata does not teach you how to fight however.

 

[seasoned]

Kata are a reenactment of battles passed. When Kata were developed, they were the only means of teaching and passing down the art from generation to generation. Kata were developed out of harsh times, where the most lethal techniques were hidden within the dance like moves. At the most basic level Kata will teach breath control, balance, proper movement from one technique to another along with rhythm. Every old Kata has at least 1 or 2 Kiai within them which point the way to the "coup de grace" or the delivering of the final blow. Kiai, known as a spirit yell, when practiced correctly, will elicit the combination of mind, body, and spirit into one point of focus. Are either one needed in modern times? It is for each one of us to decide this and see how it fits into our training goals. In the development stages of martial arts the masters of old thought so. :asian:

 

[ap Oweyn]

Kata and kiai are both unnecessary. That's not to say they aren't useful though. I see the argument that it's not a martial art unless you're practicing things like this. Which is incorrect in my view. But I'm not going to say that they're an utter waste of time either. I practiced forms for about 10 years before abandoning them. I don't use them now, but I don't begrudge anyone who does.

Kata is a toolkit. It's not the only possible way to arrange your tools. But it's one way. And I think that it's more a question of how you arrange your training around particular tools or concepts than it is about the validity of any of them in isolation. Every time someone says kata is useless, someone else says, "not the way we train them." And who am I to say they're wrong. If part of your kata training is exploding the kata and working the component pieces, then perhaps it is useful. It's just a question of how your training is organized.

Personally, I don't use either one. But that doesn't mean they're invalid.


Stuart

 

[Blade96]

some good replies here. Keep them coming I like what you all say. and you all have logic.

what i also like about kata is the performance of it, the spiritual artistic choreography of it. and the moves and spins and turns and punches and kicks and blocks etc etc. A nicely done kata is beautiful to watch. and performing the two I know, heian shodan and heian nidan, gives me a special wonderful feeling that i dont get from kihon and kumite. although i passionately love all of it, there's nothing about shotokan i dislike.

maybe that's why Funakoshi - sensei changed the name to 'heian' (Peaceful Mind)

you literally need to have a peaceful mind doing them =]

and kiai helps give me power, I feel, and confidence. and that video is spot on, it does make my strikes stronger when i do Kata and kiai. you know how some people are shy and quiet and then they learn to kiai......

 

[MJS]

I read someone say this on another forum, that kiai and kata are totally unnecessary. and maybe shouldnt even be done. but couldn't really disagree without derailing the topic. But it got me curious as to what you all think here. Do you think is is, or isnt? and why or why not?

for me, kata, I think they are good. because it shows you how to use each technique they teach you in kihon. you learn the applying the kata to opponents. (i know how heian shodan is applied for example, my senseis taught me. and I practiced the kata against a real life person, one of my bb friends, last night. well its good and i need to know it for my 8th kyu test coming up anyway. and i want to know it, isnt just a matter of, I need to.)

as for kiai i think it startles your opponent and blows their sense of control, it hardens your body for a physical strike, it puts more force into whatever strike your doing, and even a soft little kiai allows you to breathe without running out of breath (in my shotokan tournament i saw people who didnt breathe while doing their kata and when they were finished they did a forceful exhale at the end cause they'd been holding their breath)

Kata: Well, its like I've said many times before...people will either love them or hate them. I do them, as they're required in the arts that I do. Do I think they're the end all, be all of fighting? Of course not. They're just one piece of the training, nothing more. I dont feel that you can just use kata to fight. I do feel that you should know what you're doing in the kata, rather than just going through moves, without any meaning behind them.

Kiai: Generates power, startles opponent, ensures that you breath.

 

[sfs982000]

I personally love performing kata, I found them very good tools in working your techniques and helping with hand/foot timing, especially for kids. But beyond that forms are crucial with keeping up with the traditional aspects of the martial arts. There are many articles and facts proving the effectiveness of kiais.

 

[Aiki Lee]

I don't have much to add here. I agree with jks9199, and Bruno@MT.

I believe kiai serves a psychological effect on both the user and reciever as well. Kata is different from art to art. In karate a kata can last several minutes. In aiki ninjutsu kata lasts about 2 seconds.

 

[ap Oweyn]

But beyond that forms are crucial with keeping up with the traditional aspects of the martial arts.

Not really. I mean, they might be crucial to keeping up with the traditions of a particular martial art. (By definition, one that traditionally uses kata.) But there are plenty of martial arts in which forms are either not traditionally used at all or have traditionally been taken or left at the discretion of the teacher.

There are lots of cultural trappings that might mark something as a traditional art versus a modern art (e.g., titles, ranks, uniform or costume, terminology, classtime rituals, etc.). But kata isn't necessarily one of them.


Stuart

 

[Xue Sheng]

do I think kata and kiai is necessary and good in ma?

Necessary... Nope.

Good in MA, depends on the style

CMA no Kiai and there are some schools of thought from CMA that would say kiai with a strike is counter productive and not a good thing. Also there are good MA styles that have neither. Sanda has neither and I have to tell you my Sanda Sifu is damn good at MA.

However they do have their necessary place in some styles and if you want to train those styles and understand those styles then they are necessary.

 

[jks9199]

Ah... but too many people think that "kiai" is only a loud scream or grunting noise...

It's more. Sometimes, particular sounds can help shape the timing and rhythm of a technique, sometimes a controlled exhalation can bring the body's efforts together... sometimes it's just the focusing on what you're doing.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Ah... but too many people think that "kiai" is only a loud scream or grunting noise...

It's more. Sometimes, particular sounds can help shape the timing and rhythm of a technique, sometimes a controlled exhalation can bring the body's efforts together... sometimes it's just the focusing on what you're doing.

True and seasoned's post explained it very well but there are schools of thought in CMA, mostly (in my experience) Xingyiquan that believe you should be able to do that no matter inhale, exhale kiai or no kiai. Also there is a school of thought form CMA that feels that if you can only strike with kiai and that kiai is necessary to shape the timing and rhythm of a technique, controlled exhalation, bring the body's efforts together and focus on what you're doing... I am going to attack you immediately after you kiai because you cannot attack without it and you need to inhale to do it again.

My Xingyiquan Sifu was big on this if you can only strike on exhale then he was going to attack you right after you exhaled because you could not do it again until after an inhale. He was constantly telling the class; do not lock your breathing to your strikes. Breathing was always suppose to be normal and power came from being relaxed and training the body to work as a unit through stance training, But that is Xingyiquan and I would not expect other MAs to train that way nor would I base a good MA on the presence or lack of santi

I am not against a Kiai, it has it place no doubt but it is not, IMO, Necessary for all MA and it can be a determent in some cases.

 

[kingkong89]

I believe kata is neccessary to a point when you are young and learning an art yes it is neccessary because it gives you a basis on your strikes and blocks as for the kias yes because you must learn to get the air out of your body quickly once you become a black belt it is up to you on the importance of katas i myself dont practice all of my katas because i am more of a self defense person i train for the streets