Hard vs. Soft Training

[MJS]

So, the other day, I was lurking on another forum, reading a thread, in which the discussion began to focus on why this particular art (Bujinkan) doesnt train with the same energy, toughness, etc., as MMAists do. Now, any art can be substituted for the Bujinkan, but again, the focus was why don't they train hard.

Some of the replies from the Buj. folks were that by training soft, it'll take less toll on your body, you'll suffer from less injury, you may prolong your training, meaning an art that trains softer, will allow the student to train well into old age, whereas the harder arts, usually dont have guys who're 70 or 80 still training either at all or with the same intensity. Of course this was met with disagreement. People countered that the training isnt effecting them like that. Of course, the folks saying that are not in their 80s yet, so I dont know how accurate of a comeback that was, but whatever.

Anyways...what are your thoughts on hard vs. soft training? Do you feel that one is better? Do you feel that there should be only one focus? Do you feel that there should be an equal balance of both? For the sake of discussion, I just threw out a few questions to get the ball rolling. Feel free to expand on your thoughts as you wish.

 

[MJS]

My thoughts...I feel that there should be a balance of both. There are times, when I want to take it easy, so instead of running thru Sd techs. hard and fast, I'll go medium speed, allowing me to get something out of the session, but at the same time, using less energy. The same with sparring. Some days will be hard contact, while others will be lighter or the focus will be on something specific, rather than just free sparring.

Will it take a toll on your body? Sure will. Personally, I enjoy the hard workouts from time to time. Nothing like really banging hard, either with techs. or with sparring. But doing that all the time, may start taking tolls on not only you, but your training partners.

I think that training soft all the time, may have its downside as well, due to the fact that you may never experience that harder contact. So, if you're focus is SD, and you never train with any or much contact, you may be in for a rude awakening.

As I said, I'm in favor of a balance of both.

 

[Aiki Lee]

I think soft training is useful for learning mechanics, but hard training is necessary to learn to apply it properly. That being said, training can not be so rough that injury poses a great risk to training partners. Here's an example.

In the ninpo kihon happo, there is a technique called musha dori. To learn musha dori I believe a person must first start off slow and soft to learn mechanically how it is to be applied. The reciever of the technique should be cooperative and not resist at all at this time. Once that is established make the reciever more resistant and require the person doing the technique to have to actually put it on under stress. If things get to out of control then the reciever could end up with a broken elbow or have his shoulder torn from his socket, because that is what is supposed to happen under those conditions.

MMA practitioners can train "harder" because they design their move sets to submit their opponent. Other martial arts teach "softer" because their techniques rip and break things when applied for real so some degree of "acting" is required to simulate what is likely to happen in a real fight.

I think a good balanced approach is necessary. A martial artist training to be a modern day warrior shouldn't be afraid of having his lip slip open or getting bruised or even broken a little. He shouldn't expect it, but he shouldn't break down and stop just because he is hurt.

I think going hard all the time would end up making a person less effective because they don't have much time to think about flow. Starting off slow and easy and then ramping it up over time is how I believe it should be done.

 

[yak sao]

Look at boxers....can't get much harder than that.
Even they don't go full out all the time.

They don't kick into high gear until a few weeks before a fight.

 

[searcher]

I am a firm believer that both sides have their use and place in ALL MA training.

For me and my students, we work techniques with compliant opponents then we have the Uke increase resistance. The advantage of working soft is that the students work the mechanics and actually learn the technique. Then we have them go hard against an unwilling opponent, this lets them work out the kinks in their defense or technique. It also helps them see that things don't always go as you plan them or how you want them to go.

If you go soft all of the time, you will turn soft. "To fight as you train, train how you will fight." The problems with going hard all of the time is that it can tear up the body and your technique CAN be less than mediocre.


IMO, mix them up and you will be better off.

 

[blindsage]

There is also often confusion between 'hard' and 'soft' training vs. 'hard' and 'soft' approaches to combat. You can train 'hard' while using 'soft' methods, most styles have some level of this somewhere in their training, and some focus on it heavily i.e. ninpo/ninjitsu. But there are many people who train 'soft' methods ONLY in a 'soft' way and don't necessarily do themselves any favors.

 

[ap Oweyn]

Look at boxers....can't get much harder than that.
Even they don't go full out all the time.

They don't kick into high gear until a few weeks before a fight.

I think they actually kick it into low gear before the fight. Because they can't chance going into the fight injured.

 

[Xue Sheng]

IMO you need both

:yinyang:

 

[yak sao]

I think they actually kick it into low gear before the fight. Because they can't chance going into the fight injured.

Let me clarify....what I meant was they don't go full out 365 days a year.
Weeks before a fight their training escalates so they will peak at fight time.

 

[Nolerama]

I train at a MMA gym. Contact level is dictated by both sparring partners. From my travels, it's pretty much the same idea everywhere I've visited.

Now, in a lot of the MA schools I've visited over the years, I've noticed that a lot of the injuries occur during the transition between moving from a "soft" drill to a "hard" drill because the practitioners have yet to communicate their contact level.

Training "soft" should be considered an isolation of technique. If you believe in getting reps in, this is where is should be "soft". You learn why it's important to do that specific technique.

I see training "hard" as a way to integrate that technique into your overall fighting game. This doesn't mean you're out to hurt the other guy(s). This doesn't detract from the SD mindset in terms of functionality on the street. It only means that one is nearing the contact level most appropriate in an actual altercation (sport/SD/otherwise).

Regardless of MA.

I think that a MA student should be aware that there's a gray area between "hard" and "soft" training. Awareness of that will not only decrease one's chances of injury, but maximize their potential to learn technique in as live a way as possible.

Ever see "that guy" crossing over from X martial art to your gym/dojo/etc? You know, the one that doesn't/can't get the difference between learning technique and mauling his partner? Yeah, that's what I'm talking about. We had a couple of SD-minded folks from another MA/gym going "all out" and they were left wondering why we took their backs in grappling, snapping their heads down in striking, hit their "button" quite a bit... It wasn't that they were horrible MA practitioners, it was that they forgot to be mindful of the disparity between brute strength, and technique.

And you can't train "hard" all the time and get that idea.

You also can't train "soft" all the time and expect to be a great fighter/competitor/whatever.

 

[Xinglu]

So, the other day, I was lurking on another forum, reading a thread, in which the discussion began to focus on why this particular art (Bujinkan) doesnt train with the same energy, toughness, etc., as MMAists do. Now, any art can be substituted for the Bujinkan, but again, the focus was why don't they train hard.

Some of the replies from the Buj. folks were that by training soft, it'll take less toll on your body, you'll suffer from less injury, you may prolong your training, meaning an art that trains softer, will allow the student to train well into old age, whereas the harder arts, usually dont have guys who're 70 or 80 still training either at all or with the same intensity. Of course this was met with disagreement. People countered that the training isnt effecting them like that. Of course, the folks saying that are not in their 80s yet, so I dont know how accurate of a comeback that was, but whatever.

Anyways...what are your thoughts on hard vs. soft training? Do you feel that one is better? Do you feel that there should be only one focus? Do you feel that there should be an equal balance of both? For the sake of discussion, I just threw out a few questions to get the ball rolling. Feel free to expand on your thoughts as you wish.

My thoughts...I feel that there should be a balance of both. There are times, when I want to take it easy, so instead of running thru Sd techs. hard and fast, I'll go medium speed, allowing me to get something out of the session, but at the same time, using less energy. The same with sparring. Some days will be hard contact, while others will be lighter or the focus will be on something specific, rather than just free sparring.

Will it take a toll on your body? Sure will. Personally, I enjoy the hard workouts from time to time. Nothing like really banging hard, either with techs. or with sparring. But doing that all the time, may start taking tolls on not only you, but your training partners.

I think that training soft all the time, may have its downside as well, due to the fact that you may never experience that harder contact. So, if you're focus is SD, and you never train with any or much contact, you may be in for a rude awakening.

As I said, I'm in favor of a balance of both.

I'm not sure that you and I are on the same page when speaking about HARD and SOFT. I train my neijia (soft arts) as I train my kenpo or CLF. We hit each-other, we spar, we train techniques/applications at the same speed as any other MA. Blindsage already spoke to this. So I'm not sure I understand.

What exactly do you mean by "hard training" and what do you mean by "soft training?"

To me when I hear soft, I think of rapid, fluid, fajin is not readily apparent in all movements (though it is there) to the untrained observer, it avoids direct interception techniques in favor of checking, avoiding, enveloping, redirecting, trapping, etc.

When I think of hard, I think of intercepting techniques, fajin is readily apparent in all movements, attempts to damage opponent with every block, heavy on strikes, prefers to advance then to move any other direction.

Of course these are generalizations and they can change from art to art but they are what pops to the front of my mind when I hear these terms.

Training is training what you do should have purpose... so I'm not really sure what you mean by hard vs soft training.

 

[MattJ]

My experience has been similar to Nolerama's, although I do not do MMA. "Soft" training is great for isolation work, and "hard" training is where you put it all together. Both are needed, IMHO.

 

[K-man]

I'm not sure that you and I are on the same page when speaking about HARD and SOFT. I train my neijia (soft arts) as I train my kenpo or CLF. We hit each-other, we spar, we train techniques/applications at the same speed as any other MA. Blindsage already spoke to this. So I'm not sure I understand.

What exactly do you mean by "hard training" and what do you mean by "soft training?"

To me when I hear soft, I think of rapid, fluid, fajin is not readily apparent in all movements (though it is there) to the untrained observer, it avoids direct interception techniques in favor of checking, avoiding, enveloping, redirecting, trapping, etc.

When I think of hard, I think of intercepting techniques, fajin is readily apparent in all movements, attempts to damage opponent with every block, heavy on strikes, prefers to advance then to move any other direction.

Of course these are generalizations and they can change from art to art but they are what pops to the front of my mind when I hear these terms.

Training is training what you do should have purpose... so I'm not really sure what you mean by hard vs soft training.

This is also my understanding of "hard" and "soft". I often wonder if this was the original meaning of "Go-Ju" in my karate style. The more I learn the more "Ju" I find.

 

[seasoned]

This is also my understanding of "hard" and "soft". I often wonder if this was the original meaning of "Go-Ju" in my karate style. The more I learn the more "Ju" I find.

Yes, this is my understanding also. Chojun Miyagi, as well as Kanroy Higaonna spent many years in China training in the softer arts "internal" as well as White Crane. Miyagi Sensei combined the softer arts from China to his Okinawan Te to form GoJu (hard/soft). I hope I am not being redundant.

 

[GreatLakes]

So, the other day, I was lurking on another forum, reading a thread, in which the discussion began to focus on why this particular art (Bujinkan) doesnt train with the same energy, toughness, etc., as MMAists do. Now, any art can be substituted for the Bujinkan, but again, the focus was why don't they train hard.

Some of the replies from the Buj. folks were that by training soft, it'll take less toll on your body, you'll suffer from less injury, you may prolong your training, meaning an art that trains softer, will allow the student to train well into old age, whereas the harder arts, usually dont have guys who're 70 or 80 still training either at all or with the same intensity. Of course this was met with disagreement. People countered that the training isnt effecting them like that. Of course, the folks saying that are not in their 80s yet, so I dont know how accurate of a comeback that was, but whatever.

Anyways...what are your thoughts on hard vs. soft training? Do you feel that one is better? Do you feel that there should be only one focus? Do you feel that there should be an equal balance of both? For the sake of discussion, I just threw out a few questions to get the ball rolling. Feel free to expand on your thoughts as you wish.

Well, first of all, the bujinkan is essentially a for-profit cult and what they do is called LARPing. The bujinkan is a joke to real martial artists.

MMA fighters train "hard" because they want to win real fights. You play like you practice.

"Soft" training is a disgrace to real martial arts because it doesn't prepare one for a real life situation. It only gives a false sense of confidence and can end up getting one hurt and embarassed if they depend on it in a real fight.
It is a good way to identify McDojos, though.

 

[jks9199]

GreatLakes... You've clearly got some strong opinions. It might help if you shared some of your background in The Meet & Greet or supported your opinion a little better. There are more than a few very skilled Bujinkan members hereabouts who don't run around in ninja masks out of the movies, and can vouch for the effectiveness of what they've been taught in the real deal -- not a sporting ring.

MMA is a great, challenging sport -- but it's not the be all and end all of hard training. Nor is an MMA match a real fight... Not compared to real violence.

 

[K-man]

Well, first of all, the bujinkan is essentially a for-profit cult and what they do is called LARPing. The bujinkan is a joke to real martial artists.

MMA fighters train "hard" because they want to win real fights. You play like you practice.

"Soft" training is a disgrace to real martial arts because it doesn't prepare one for a real life situation. It only gives a false sense of confidence and can end up getting one hurt and embarassed if they depend on it in a real fight.
It is a good way to identify McDojos, though.

I don't know a lot about 'Bujinkan'. However ther is a para in Wiki that caught my attention.

Bujinkan Budō Taijutsu practice does not normally include participation in competitions or contests, as the school's training aims to develop the skills to protect ones self and others, through the use of techniques which often focus on the disabling (breaking) of the attackers limbs and which can also intentionally cause their death. Most competitions, even MMA and UFC, have some collection of rules to be observed, such as the restriction of weapons or the number of opponents. The Bujinkan does not adhere to any guideline or set of rules to limit action or techniques during training, as such many of the staple responses of an average student would be illegal in most competitions. Even more important though, is the concept of a competition. The very idea of 'fighting' on equal or specific terms, is taboo in the Bujinkan, where the emphisis is placed on achieving ones goals 'by any means'. Whilst it is natural for people to compare the training of one martial art to another, it must be remembered that, in every school in every martial art there are different teachers who place differing emphisis on differing ideals. To Judge ANY Art on the ability of single teacher or practioner would be foolish, to gain a complete perspective one must seek out the best of all disciplines, and thus advised form an opinion of the effective nature of any or all 'styles'.

Doesn't sound like a joke to me, but then I don't have a sense of humour.

MMA sighters train 'hard', sure. So do boxers, footballers, swimmers, table tennis players and even some judoka, to rise to the top of their SPORT.
And, if 'soft' training is a disgrace, it indicates to me that anyone making that statement has never experienced the effectiveness of a soft art. The day I find a McDojo even attempting to teach a soft art, I will be there like a shot. But then I doubt I would live that long! What I have seen of their teaching has nothing to do with 'soft'. But, then again, what would I know anyway? Obviously I've never trained on a 'real' martial art. :asian:

 

[Tez3]

Great Lakes, you seem to have a fixation on 'outing' McDojos looking at your other posts.
MMA fighters do train 'soft' as well, they have to learn techniques and will drill them until they have them off pat, they can hardly go into each training session as if it were a fight. I think you may have some odd ideas about an MMA fighters workout.
MMA fighters will drill techniques, they will spar stand up lightly to sharpen reflexes and speed,they all have their own fitness programmes and they'll train with dedication but rarely do they train full contact in training though it may be harder than some martial artists train. Full contact is reserved for the competitions.

 

[Xue Sheng]

MMA fighters train "hard" because they want to win real fights. You play like you practice.

Been here done this but I found it intersting your profile says Judo... ever trained MMA of actually faught in a match or is this couch MMA worship.

"Soft" training is a disgrace to real martial arts because it doesn't prepare one for a real life situation. It only gives a false sense of confidence and can end up getting one hurt and embarassed if they depend on it in a real fight.
.

You truly have no idea what soft training is do you

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

You have to have a balance of both. In life you need balance in everything and it is the same with the martial sciences. You need to have some soft training to ingrain specific skill sets, internal work and then you need some hard training, external work to get some pressure testing in. Your age will also dictate on where you spend more time at.