Distance Learning Doesn't Work

[Danjo]

Distance learning doesn't work unless you've already trained in the material live. At least this is true of the techniques. Kata, you can probably learn via video. Let me tell you about my experience with this:

Last night I started training at Prof. John Bishop's Kajukenbo Academy. It was GREAT to be back to live training and it was a wonderful class. The students are well trained and friendly and Prof. Bishop is a lot of fun to train with as your instructor. I'm pretty sore today, but in a good way!

Now, I have had the Kajukenbo tapes for some time now and had memorized many of the techniques in anticipation of training in Kajukenbo. I practiced them in the air over and over again until they were fairly well polished. Well, once I got to start trying them with the students, I found out that my sense of timing and distance was all off. Plus, there were several subtlties in the techniques that I had missed when watching the tapes. Not being a novice in the martial arts, I was fair at some of them, but I looked like a white belt at many of them. I am therefore absolutely convinced that there is no way anyone can get to black belt legitimately through a video course. There's just too much that you can't learn without live training and an instructor that can tell you what you're doing wrong. The tapes are a great supplement, but they in no way are a substitute for actual instruction. People are just fooling themselves if they think otherwise.

 

[still learning]

Hello, Having someone actully go thru the process is the best person to ask and share their thoughts on this.

Your experience is the best advice anyone can give....thank-you for sharing those.

Videos training has a purpose.....but the real thing cannot be substituted, ...Aloha

 

[TwistofFat]

Danjo,

Great point. This brings some real life 'scar-tissue' to an often discussed topic on MT. I have had similar experences - I hold a BB in EPAK that I earned over many years and solid instructors (Meth, Cappi, Meyer of the Wedlake-Planas 'clan') that I now supplement with video to jar my memories. It is amazing how off cneter one can get when you are away from quality hands-on work. I am all for using videos where appropriate, but not happy witht the many stripes earned by mail.

Regards - Glenn.

 

[Kwiter]

Kwe sewakwekon ohnisonhatie , hello everyone how are you?

I recieved my DVD today from Adrian Roman on American Kenpo Forms 1 thru long 3. This will be for supplemental use by my daughters who train at the local Amerikick which the Sensei there tells me uses the American Kenpo Forms tho does add in some other techniques to the mix. Their school also sells DVD's of forms so after I watch this video I may chuck it back on Ebay and buy the one from Amerikick. I'm NOT a Martial Artist by ANY stretch of the imagination tho contemplating studying myself to get rid of the EXTRA me ;-) Getting a bit Barrel Bellied instead of chested these days ;-) Tho still in decent shape from swinging Sledge hammers at work and so forth.

I'll take a belt loop and a 2 pound sledge as my weapon of choice Mr Trebeck ;-) No one bats an eye at it eh ;-) Same with them Cane Fighters.

ANYWAY I'll post my thoughts on the Video later after watching the video tho my girls aren't here to join in, they went to Grandma's ;-)

Also picked up at the library for the Mrs, that Tae Bo Billy Blanks Cardio something or other.

O:nen ki' wahi' Bye for now

Support the Six Nations at Caledonia Ontario, Stop the Provinces Land grab

Skennen Peace

 

[Gentle Fist]

Good post Danjo!

Now if we can just get all these test by tape people to understand this.

Speaking of which.... Did anyone see the new Chris Geary 6th dan testing video on the Karezenpo website?

 

[Kwiter]

I recieved my forms video and watched it, I believe it will be a good reference for my daughters to aid their training at the local dojo. Not sure how well it would work for use as Learn at home ONLY tho but did bid on Adrian Roman's Complete learn at home system for Yellow thru first degree Black , again this will NOT replace my daughters trips to the dojo.

After I get these in a week or two and watch them I'll post my "review"

Adrian Roman does seem to want to help you learn and I can't really say that he's making alot of $$$ on them for $99 for the whole set unlike his Website which is charging $995. At $99 their certainly a more palatable price.

BTW Century Fitness sells some Kenpo training Videos in the new catalog I got for Yellow thru I think 3rd Degree Black at $9.99 per DVD, each belt is 2 discs except for Yellow.

I'm a Vidiot, I like Videos, still no idea how well you can learn from them as the ONLY thing teaching you but still like them.

Skennen Peace.

 

[Michael Billings]

Danjo, great post. My position also, is that recorded media can be an adjunct to training, but not sufficient in and of itself, whether you test by tape or not.

The old adage "You get what you pay for" can hold true on video's as in anything else. If you search this site for "Adrian Roman" you may get more than you bargan for.

Great that you saw that your daughters needed the dojo to really learn the Art.

Respectfully,
-Michael

 

[Kwiter]

Part of the attraction is at the Dojo they can YELL KIAI and not see Mommy Cringe ;-) they are surrounded by their friends and classmates so it's a social tool as well.

I am the type of person who HAS learned a great many things via Video and books. Not sure how well MA training will be that way but I imagine even mediocre ones will teach SOMETHING might not be the next Superfoot Wallace or Chuck Norris this way but I believe given a choice of No MA Training or Video Training Video Training would be better, hopefully the person has the willpower to actually DO the things taught tho, just watching them won't teach anything really, Muscle Memory is IMPORTANT ;-)

I disagree with the Subject of this thread until proven to me otherwise. Distance Learning has been repeatedly used to train people to do things, Hell you can even get College via online classes these days.
Now a more accurate subject I feel might be Distance learning probably doesn't work as well as training with a quality instructor live....might be too big for a subject header tho ;-)

Certainly the possiblity for making mistakes is there if trying to learn via Video alone, but then again even if it's WRONG it may still work fine as wine for YOU like the ole saying goes, more than one way to skin a possum!

To sorta qoute Dr Tim Leary....Open your mind ;-)

You just might learn ya sumptin ;-)

Skennen Peace.

 

[Danjo]

Part of the attraction is at the Dojo they can YELL KIAI and not see Mommy Cringe ;-) they are surrounded by their friends and classmates so it's a social tool as well.

I am the type of person who HAS learned a great many things via Video and books. Not sure how well MA training will be that way but I imagine even mediocre ones will teach SOMETHING might not be the next Superfoot Wallace or Chuck Norris this way but I believe given a choice of No MA Training or Video Training Video Training would be better, hopefully the person has the willpower to actually DO the things taught tho, just watching them won't teach anything really, Muscle Memory is IMPORTANT ;-)

I disagree with the Subject of this thread until proven to me otherwise. Distance Learning has been repeatedly used to train people to do things, Hell you can even get College via online classes these days.
Now a more accurate subject I feel might be Distance learning probably doesn't work as well as training with a quality instructor live....might be too big for a subject header tho ;-)

Certainly the possiblity for making mistakes is there if trying to learn via Video alone, but then again even if it's WRONG it may still work fine as wine for YOU like the ole saying goes, more than one way to skin a possum!

To sorta qoute Dr Tim Leary....Open your mind ;-)

You just might learn ya sumptin ;-)

Skennen Peace.

Yes you can get a college degree via the internet etc. (Or somebody using your name can), but college degrees are not physical in nature, the martial arts are. Do you think that you could learn to swim via video? How about perform gymnastics? Unless you had an instructor to tell you what you are doing wrong and making corrections, it won't work very well. Also, it's very very hard to tell if you're doing it right. You may find yourself using muscle to perform a technique when you should be using leverage etc. and it's just not always easy to tell on your own.

Let me give you an example of what I encountered. In Kajukenbo Grab Art #4, there is a trap done where you trap the grabbing arms with your hand and forearm. In the video, which shows it from different angles and at varying speeds, it looks like a wrist grab. However, when it's doen in the dojo, it's obvious that it needs to be a trap, and the instructor shows you how it is supposed to be done. Now when I watch the video, I can see the trap and I get it.

I suppose that the videos could have been four times as long (and expensive) and then they could have broken down the technique by trying to come up with the various ways that people do these wrong and then shown the corrections, but what a waste of time that would have been! Plus, what if you were making another mistake that the video didn't cover? Also, when you video test, the sme thing applies to the evaluator. They're only going to catch the big mistakes that you make when demonstrating the techniques etc. I'm afraid that there're just too many problems with trying to actually learn the martial arts via video for me to think that it's a good idea.

 

[Carol]

Yes you can get a college degree via the internet etc. (Or somebody using your name can), but college degrees are not physical in nature, the martial arts are.

There are more paralells between training in MA and studying at the collegiate level than one may realize. I hold a B.Mus. but work in telecom. I reached a point where I absolutely had to take some engineering classes to continue in my career, and decided to enroll in the cybereducation program at the University of Massachusetts. I mention this to stress the fact that I was in a program that was academically rigorous and most certainly not attending a McCollege.

I thought an internet class would be easy. I was dead wrong. Students in the in-person class typically bought 2 books per course, sometimes 3. My book buying consisted of the one required book, the two optional books, and three additional books to beef up my learning in ways that class didn't.

In addition, I was seeking out people that knew what I was learning. I was bouncing ideas off of them, looking to them for suggestions, and sometimes even asking them how I could apply these concepts to my career.

As networking is just as much as part of building a career as knowledge is, one's ability to network is compromised, as one doesn't have chance to be fact to face with one's fellow students. To get this advantage requires a lot of extra legwork, such as getting people together after class or really reaching out to the people that are in driving distance from Massachusetts.

End result? Its very difficult to duplicate a collegiate classroom environment, complete with classmates, professors, and seminars. However, it IS possible. The way to do it though, requires a lot of extra work.

I think distance learning is possible, but not necessarily the way it is packaged. If one gets the video, studies up on as much supplemental material, seeks out established people in their art and spends time training with both established students and fellow people, it is possible to get an experience that is very similar to being in an in-person class. However, it takes a lot more time and more effort than it would if one attends a class and has the benefit of having everything packaged together.

It is possible to learn something without all of the extra legwork. It is possible to learn UNIX by simply focusing on studying UNIX commands. It may not be the full experience/benefit of collegiate coursework, but it is not time lost, either.

 

[Kwiter]

Kwe Hello Danjo, learn to swim and Gymnastics via Video/Book. Maybe Maybe not, I don't think a whole team of folks could teach me Gymnastics ;-)

Now, your point of not seeing everything thats SUPPOSED to be going on in a video is a valid one, I ASSUME(we know how that goes eh) that distance Learning folks would provide some type of reading material to explain whats going on, for example Adrian Roman includes the Ed Parker American Kenpo manual on CD which I again ASSUME gives details as to what your looking at on the video. A Video by itself unless they stop after each technique and explain it....not likely I'd guess would be hard to learn from.

Would you think you could learn to field strip firearms this way? It's how I learned to EASILY take my Browning Hi-Power and Ruger MKII apart and do some basic gunsmithing on them. I have an advantage of course being a Machinist but I think anyone with mechanical ability would be able to follow them. I don't think someone who's all thumbs could do it with a team from the Rhodes School instructing him could do it irregardless which is why I mentioned what I did about Gymnastics, I'm built like a Fire Hydrant ;-)

I guess I will know better how Adrian Roman's Distance Learning package is soon enough, I just checked Ebay and I won the bid, $89 for the DVD's for Yellow to 1st Black, forms short 1 thru long 3 and a CD with the manuals on it. This was direct from Adrian Roman BTW and since I only just bought the forms DVD from him he's making a substitution for me.

I imagine at WORST it will be a helper for my Daughters training at the Dojo and at best this ole dog will learn some new tricks ;-) Dunno if even after learning everything there is on this system if I'd SAY I was a BB but thats of little import to me unless I get a wild hair and decide I somehow can teach people this technique....highly unlikely as I'm not the teaching type NO patience at ALL.

Skennen Peace.

 

[Danjo]

Kwe Hello Danjo, learn to swim and Gymnastics via Video/Book. Maybe Maybe not, I don't think a whole team of folks could teach me Gymnastics ;-)

Now, your point of not seeing everything thats SUPPOSED to be going on in a video is a valid one, I ASSUME(we know how that goes eh) that distance Learning folks would provide some type of reading material to explain whats going on, for example Adrian Roman includes the Ed Parker American Kenpo manual on CD which I again ASSUME gives details as to what your looking at on the video. A Video by itself unless they stop after each technique and explain it....not likely I'd guess would be hard to learn from.

Would you think you could learn to field strip firearms this way? It's how I learned to EASILY take my Browning Hi-Power and Ruger MKII apart and do some basic gunsmithing on them. I have an advantage of course being a Machinist but I think anyone with mechanical ability would be able to follow them. I don't think someone who's all thumbs could do it with a team from the Rhodes School instructing him could do it irregardless which is why I mentioned what I did about Gymnastics, I'm built like a Fire Hydrant ;-)

I guess I will know better how Adrian Roman's Distance Learning package is soon enough, I just checked Ebay and I won the bid, $89 for the DVD's for Yellow to 1st Black, forms short 1 thru long 3 and a CD with the manuals on it. This was direct from Adrian Roman BTW and since I only just bought the forms DVD from him he's making a substitution for me.

I imagine at WORST it will be a helper for my Daughters training at the Dojo and at best this ole dog will learn some new tricks ;-) Dunno if even after learning everything there is on this system if I'd SAY I was a BB but thats of little import to me unless I get a wild hair and decide I somehow can teach people this technique....highly unlikely as I'm not the teaching type NO patience at ALL.

Skennen Peace.

Well, good luck with that. Be sure to let us know how it comes out if you ever get a chance to train with the video and then go to take live training afterwards. I'd be interested to see how easily it crosses over after my own experience.

 

[The Kai]

Good post Danjo!



Speaking of which.... Did anyone see the new Chris Geary 6th dan testing video on the Karezenpo website?

It looks pretty much like a joke, right??

BTW the form is nor Pinan 1, or done with any competence

 

[BlackCatBonz]

Distance learning doesn't work unless you've already trained in the material live.
<snip> . People are just fooling themselves if they think otherwise.

Hallelujah

 

[Kwiter]

I watched the Yellow Belt Techniques video earlier today, I think Mr Roman's leaving some mistakes in the video was perhaps a mistake tho may have been done intentionally to show we are all human. Maybe not.

From what I saw the gentleman was quite competent but not being an expert in Kenpo I could be mistaken. I found the combination of printed(you print it tho) materials and Video fairly easy to follow, just as easy to follow as when I tried JuJitsu took a few times seeing it before it finally sunk in and even then I goofed it up on quite a few occassions, my mind knew what it was supposed to do but the flesh was weak ;-)

Till I see the rest I can't comment further but I'd say you could learn as a complete Newb from this video/manual combo, can't say wether you'd be better or worse than if trained Live or not but the video looked as good as any other MA training Videos I've seen such as the Kyokushkin Encyclopedia's volume 2 and 3.

your mileage may vary and so will opinions.

Perhaps I'm wrong but it seems that folks are jumping to conclusions and maybe haven't seen the videos just aghast at the idea and the outrageous pricing on the website.

Buying this set via Ebay is certainly the way to go, $89 + $5.05 S&H IF this is your thing, if not even $10 would likely be too much.

I'll keep updating my opinion which of course is like buttholes everyones got one and mine is no better than anyone elses.