Distance Training Doesn't Work

Danjo

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Distance learning doesn't work unless you've already trained in the material live. At least this is true of the techniques. Kata, you can probably learn via video. Let me tell you about my experience with this:

Last night I started training at Prof. John Bishop's Kajukenbo Academy. It was GREAT to be back to live training and it was a wonderful class. The students are well trained and friendly and Prof. Bishop is a lot of fun to train with as your instructor. I'm pretty sore today, but in a good way!

Now, I have had the Kajukenbo tapes for some time and had memorized many of the techniques in anticipation of training in Kajukenbo. I practiced them in the air over and over again until they were fairly well polished. Well, once I got to start trying them with the students, I found out that my sense of timing and distance was all off. Plus, there were several subtleties in the techniques that I had missed when watching the tapes. Not being a novice in the martial arts, I was fair at some of them, but I looked like a white belt at many of them. I am therefore absolutely convinced that there is no way anyone can get to black belt legitimately through a video course. There's just too much that you can't learn without live training and an instructor that can tell you what you're doing wrong. The tapes are a great supplement, but they in no way are a substitute for actual instruction. People are just fooling themselves if they think otherwise.
 

Kenpodoc

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I used to use Video tapes to review the gross motor movements of a technique prior to comeing to class. That allowed me to concentrate on the more subtle intracacies during class and I spent less of my face time with the teach onthe gross movement.

Jeff
 

Flying Crane

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I agree that video can be useful if you are already familiar with the material, or at the very least if you have a solid background already. Trying to learn it from ground zero, however, I think is bound for failure but you may not realize it until you get a chance to train with some people.
 

bujuts

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I suppose it depends on what you're learning. First off, I don't really learn anything from anything other than people, however I can't entirely disregard the use of media. In the past, I have gained much in terms of practice methods, conditioning, and drills

In the same fashion, I have gained much by watching other systems in which have I have 0.00% interest in learning. But training methods, teaching methods, some concepts, drills, and conditioning may be applied across the diversity of systems.

But details on techniques? Stuff I need to feel to believe? No thanks. Iron forges iron, man forges man.

Godo topic, Cheers,

Steven Brown
UKF
 

James Kovacich

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Danjo said:
1) Distance learning doesn't work unless you've already trained in the material live.

2) Not being a novice in the martial arts, I was fair at some of them, but I looked like a white belt at many of them.

3) I am therefore absolutely convinced that there is no way anyone can get to black belt legitimately through a video course.

4) There's just too much that you can't learn without live training and an instructor that can tell you what you're doing wrong.

5) The tapes are a great supplement, but they in no way are a substitute for actual instruction.

6) People are just fooling themselves if they think otherwise.

1) Possibly correct. That would depend on the individual.

2) Apparrently you are novice enough that you couldn't make it work while others do.

3) Refer to answer #2. But I think you may have a true motive that is headed in another direction about certain people.

4) Theres to much that YOU can't learn. Again refer to answer #2. Live training is a necesity for a lot of systems but some senior instructors don't see it that way and some even base their judgnment solely on forms.
http://www.thebelt.com/
Not saying it's a good program. Just saying that some who are greater than us see it differantly than you.

5) True.

6) Or maybe you were just fooling yourself. You're abilities in no way affect everyone elses.
 

stickarts

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I see tapes and seminars as great supplements to your training, however, it can't replace a live instructor just like taking strictly vitamin supplements can't replace good healthy home cooked meals! :)
 
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Danjo

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akja said:
1) Possibly correct. That would depend on the individual.

2) Apparrently you are novice enough that you couldn't make it work while others do.

3) Refer to answer #2. But I think you may have a true motive that is headed in another direction about certain people.

4) Theres to much that YOU can't learn. Again refer to answer #2. Live training is a necesity for a lot of systems but some senior instructors don't see it that way and some even base their judgnment solely on forms.
http://www.thebelt.com/
Not saying it's a good program. Just saying that some who are greater than us see it differantly than you.

5) True.

6) Or maybe you were just fooling yourself. You're abilities in no way affect everyone elses.

First off, I did say that one can learn kata via video. Especially if one tapes oneself and watches it until it looks like what you see on the original tape.

As to the rest of it Jim, I wasn't bringing a volitile topic from another forum over here where they prefer to keep things more cordial. There's no hidden motives behind what I'm saying. I was actually surprised at the results. I'm a pretty quick study and this was the first time I had actually done it this way. My previous training had all been live with supplemental and review material on video. In live training, I pick it up quickly, so this is a first where I tried to learn it directly off of a video before trying to apply it. It helped to a certain extent to know the material in my head, but it simply didn't transfer straight across like I would have thought.

I'm not going to get into a flame war with you over here despite your intended insults. Every forum has their own tolerances for that sort of thing and Martial Talk likes to keep things pretty civil.
 

Mcura

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This question isn't directed to a specific person. I'd just like to know if anyone here has taken a drill from a video and tried it out with a training partner? I haven't got a really big library of tapes, but the material I have seen pretty much requires that you have at least one good friend to practice with. Failing that, perhaps a heavy bag, a BOB, a pell, or even a Mook Jong to strike and give you feedback.
 

Carol

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Danjo,

The one thing that you do not mention about your distance training: the amount of time that you studied sir.

How many hours of video did you watch over what period of time?

How many hours of practice did you put in over what period of time?

How regular was your practice schedule?

What was the scope of the material that you studied? Was it supposed to take you from white to black?

I don't mean any disrespect, just trying to understand the circumstances under which you did your training.

Respectfully,
Carol
 

Hand Sword

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Maybe I see things differently, but, the fact that people are at least familiar with the movements, terminology, etc.. shows that distance learning can work to some degree. Epecially, if the tests are reviewed properly. These people doing them seem to be doing well. However, I agree, that having past experience will definiely help in video studying.

I just beleive that doing anything is helpful, and anything is better than nothing. If you have the will to learn you will do so, no matter the "dojo" location. (your living room included)
 

James Kovacich

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Danjo said:
First off, I did say that one can learn kata via video. Especially if one tapes oneself and watches it until it looks like what you see on the original tape.

As to the rest of it Jim, I wasn't bringing a volitile topic from another forum over here where they prefer to keep things more cordial. There's no hidden motives behind what I'm saying. I was actually surprised at the results. I'm a pretty quick study and this was the first time I had actually done it this way. My previous training had all been live with supplemental and review material on video. In live training, I pick it up quickly, so this is a first where I tried to learn it directly off of a video before trying to apply it. It helped to a certain extent to know the material in my head, but it simply didn't transfer straight across like I would have thought.

I'm not going to get into a flame war with you over here despite your intended insults. Every forum has their own tolerances for that sort of thing and Martial Talk likes to keep things pretty civil.

Sorry. It seemed that there were "key" words #'s 3 amd 6 seemed baiting. If I'm wrong, my bad. I figured that by now you new that I use electronic technology for my training association.

My original intention was to use generic videos but I've found that since students don't sign up in large numbers and their skill level varies. My videos are tailored to the student. I've also played with skype and a few others but it is fairly easy to make a DVD and just put it in the mail.

My students are spread out and I travel to them. I have a group here with me that pay regular rates and my distant students pay far less and we make arrangements for 1 on 1. So it really is a blend of hands on and modern technology.

I sensed you had a "double wammy" with my association and the other.
I surely could of easily been wrong and the more time you spend with John and his school no doubt you will make major changes all for the better.

One thing. I'm guessing Johns students are very good and the fact you had no training partner. You probably were just off, like we all are when we take time off. The medium has "merit" with proper usage.

The hardest thing about it is actually training by ones self. You train that which you can do by yourself. Once you have a training partner. Repetition along with the "mechanics of the technique" is key for muscle memory. Your skill will allow you to fine tune much technique when you are alone. That combined with some form of guidance from an instructor it works. Differant instructors will offer differant levels of guidance and some will offer none.


I WAS RIGHT! YOU POST ONE THING HERE AND OVER THERE YOU POST "THE CRAP." I'M LEAVING WHAT I ORIGINALLY WROTE BECAUSE I WAS SINCERE.
 
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Danjo

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Carol Kaur said:
Danjo,

The one thing that you do not mention about your distance training: the amount of time that you studied sir.

How many hours of video did you watch over what period of time?

How many hours of practice did you put in over what period of time?

How regular was your practice schedule?

What was the scope of the material that you studied? Was it supposed to take you from white to black?

I don't mean any disrespect, just trying to understand the circumstances under which you did your training.

Respectfully,
Carol

Carol,

I spent about 30 minutes a day for about four months in learning the techniques (punch counters, grab arts, club and knife counters). I limited it to how many I could reasonably learn and practice in that time. Mostly, I was after familiarity with the techniques so that I wouldn't be starting from ground zero. The videos helped quite a lot, but, there were still the issues with timing and distance that no amount of solo practice could overcome.

Previous to that, however, I have worked out with the Villari's White to Blackbelt series. Now, I already had a good amount of time and experience in Shaolin Kempo, so much of it was largely review, but I'm sure that the results would be the same as far as the learning of new techniques (by which I mean two-man combinations).

People can learn a great deal from videos, but black belt level skills are not among them in my opinion.
 

Jonathan Randall

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While I understand the points made in this thread, IMO, a better title would be "Distance Training has Some Serious Disadvantages".
 

Hand Sword

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Excellent perspective!
icon14.gif
 

Blindside

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akja said:
1) Possibly correct. That would depend on the individual.
2) Apparrently you are novice enough that you couldn't make it work while others do.
3) Refer to answer #2. But I think you may have a true motive that is headed in another direction about certain people.
4) Theres to much that YOU can't learn. Again refer to answer #2. Live training is a necesity for a lot of systems but some senior instructors don't see it that way and some even base their judgnment solely on forms.
http://www.thebelt.com/
Not saying it's a good program. Just saying that some who are greater than us see it differantly than you.
5) True.
6) Or maybe you were just fooling yourself. You're abilities in no way affect everyone elses.

The lady doth protest too much, methinks.
 

Carol

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Danjo said:
Carol,

I spent about 30 minutes a day for about four months in learning the techniques (punch counters, grab arts, club and knife counters). I limited it to how many I could reasonably learn and practice in that time. Mostly, I was after familiarity with the techniques so that I wouldn't be starting from ground zero. The videos helped quite a lot, but, there were still the issues with timing and distance that no amount of solo practice could overcome.

Previous to that, however, I have worked out with the Villari's White to Blackbelt series. Now, I already had a good amount of time and experience in Shaolin Kempo, so much of it was largely review, but I'm sure that the results would be the same as far as the learning of new techniques (by which I mean two-man combinations).

People can learn a great deal from videos, but black belt level skills are not among them in my opinion.

I don't disagree with you sir. Plus, I do not believe the softer skills of discipline, respect, focus, etc. can be effectively taught via video, and these skills are just as much a part of being a black belt as the fighting skills are.

The discipline and structure of your own training speaks a lot for your dedication to trying to make the video solution work for you as well as you could.

Personally, I am not fond of video certifications. But the phrase "class supplement" is something I still associate with college and a very boring history class. :D I think that for the DVD material to be worthwhile, it has to be an impassioned production, as if the instructor genuinely wants to train his/her students to black belt level.

Thanks for offering your feedback :)
 

Jonathan Randall

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Carol Kaur said:
I don't disagree with you sir. Plus, I do not believe the softer skills of discipline, respect, focus, etc. can be effectively taught via video, and these skills are just as much a part of being a black belt as the fighting skills are.

The discipline and structure of your own training speaks a lot for your dedication to trying to make the video solution work for you as well as you could.

Personally, I am not fond of video certifications. But the phrase "class supplement" is something I still associate with college and a very boring history class. :D I think that for the DVD material to be worthwhile, it has to be an impassioned production, as if the instructor genuinely wants to train his/her students to black belt level.

Thanks for offering your feedback :)

While I agree with all your points, in my experience, the only ones completing such courses (aside from straight diploma mills) already are experienced martial artists who, for some reason or another, are unable to attend formal classes regularly.

In my case, I learned quite a bit from the Krav Maga videos and I am currently working through a very intense and well done boxing video set (I boxed in college).
 

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