Kenpo Distance Learning?

[shane23ss]

I know this has been talked about a lot on this site, and I'm sure it has probably been addressed some where else, I just couldn't find it. So I want to ask the question:

1) What does everyone think about Distance Learning Kenpo through video tape? Is it good or bad, agree with it or disagree with it?

2) Who knows (works out or trains with) a Distance Learning BB? What do you think of their skills?

3) Of the people that offer Distant Learning Videos, who do you think offers the best way of doing it and why?

Thanks to everyone in advance.:asian:

 

[shane23ss]

Got some viewers but no takers?

 

[MJS]

I know this has been talked about a lot on this site, and I'm sure it has probably been addressed some where else, I just couldn't find it. So I want to ask the question:

Hi Shane! Yes, there has been much discussion about this on MT. I'll give my .02 on your questions.

1) What does everyone think about Distance Learning Kenpo through video tape? Is it good or bad, agree with it or disagree with it?

IMO, nothing can replace an actual instructor. No tape/DVD out there is going to give you the fine points that you can get from an inst. As a ref. tool, they are fine. For example: If someone went out and bought a BJJ tape set, and they have never trained in BJJ, they are most likely going to have a very hard time picking up the material. Now, I have been training in BJJ for a while now, and yes, I have some tapes, but again, I use them as a ref., not as my sole learning tool. As for how this applies to Kenpo..same thing. You need someone IFO you to show the details.

2) Who knows (works out or trains with) a Distance Learning BB? What do you think of their skills?

Don't know anyone, so I can't comment. Well, I'll make a small comment.. :ultracool I would think that their skill would not be the greatest.

3) Of the people that offer Distant Learning Videos, who do you think offers the best way of doing it and why?

If you were going to go with one, I'd say Tatums tapes. Havent seen them, but have heard many excellent things about them.

Again, I'll stress this point. I'd definately look for a quality school with an inst. to teach you, rather than a tape/dvd. Is it possible to learn the material? Well, anything is possible, but whats the quality gonna be like?

Mike

 

[Colin_Linz]

I don’t believe it can be done. Of course I don’t study American Kempo so my opinion may not be worth much. I know there is no way you could learn Shorinji Kempo via video or books. I have books and videos, but they are only any good as a study guide for what I already know. Apart from the fact that the techniques will never be learned properly, how could you ever develop distance, timing, strategy, or reading your opponent?

 

[Dark Kenpo Lord]

I don’t believe it can be done. Of course I don’t study American Kempo so my opinion may not be worth much. I know there is no way you could learn Shorinji Kempo via video or books. I have books and videos, but they are only any good as a study guide for what I already know. Apart from the fact that the techniques will never be learned properly, how could you ever develop distance, timing, strategy, or reading your opponent?

I'll admit, you're never gonna get the same quality without personal instruction, I've seen both and live instruction wins EVERY TIME. I'm of the belief that video instruction can be done to teach most aspects, inlcuding timing, power, etc., you just haven't seen them, YET. That's OK, wait until I get mine online, then you can either fall over in disbelief or render criticisms.

BTW Colin, it's American keNpo, I haven't seen an American keMpo system yet. Yea, I get dodgy on the spelling because it's what seperates up from the others and I want absolutely no confusion.


DarK LorD

 

[Mark Weiser]

Okay now for my opinion for what it is worth lol! We have dicussed this before.

Now for instance for an introduction to an art to get some basic ideas and insights to how Kenpo works. Video Tapes are good. There are two places that have an excellent video tape library.

1.) Larry Tatum & the IKCA has an excellent track record of training and the Black Belts(they have trained) to back up their claims.

I currently train with a live instructor in the art of Hawaiian Kempo here locally. And the background the IKCA gave me thur the tapes is and was a great resource for me.

I have to agree having a real live person pointing out your mistakes on the spot instead of waiting for the correction tape is the best way to learn. I have done both Video learning and Studio learning. The Tapes are a great resource but nothing beats a real live breathing instructor standing there.

I have watched the IKCA, Larry Tatum's, and a few other BB's on training tape.

Enough said LOL!

 

[Colin_Linz]

BTW Colin, it's American keNpo, I haven't seen an American keMpo system yet. Yea, I get dodgy on the spelling because it's what seperates up from the others and I want absolutely no confusion.


DarK LorD

I'll use the kenpo spelling when refering to American styles in future. I didn't think it was important and just prefere the correct romanisation.

 

[Colin_Linz]

I'll admit, you're never gonna get the same quality without personal instruction, I've seen both and live instruction wins EVERY TIME. I'm of the belief that video instruction can be done to teach most aspects, inlcuding timing, power, etc., you just haven't seen them, YET. That's OK, wait until I get mine online, then you can either fall over in disbelief or render criticisms.

DarK LorD

It is true I can’t critique something I have never seen, I just based my opinion on my experiences learning Shorinji Kempo and my experience in Vocational Education. Do you guys have much in the way of locks and throws? If so I would be surprised if they can be taught satisfactorily by video. Don’t get me wrong; I’m not having a shot at what you do, because as you say, I have not seen them.

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

My 2 cents...Don't waste your money or your time. There are too many subtleties that are slipping away from the "passing the torch" process within the live-training world, such that the quality of kenpo instruction around the US is already degrading rapidly. How much more so if you don't have the immediate feedback and correction of a live instructor with all the pieces?

Find a live teacher. Then, at least, there is a better chance of fewer pieces dropping out of the knowledge chain. Ever play the game 'telephone'? The further you are away from the original message, the greater the distortion of that message. With a tape, there isn't even a warm body whispering in your ear...just flickering light patterns on a TV screen. Avoid it like the plague. And if you don't, certainly have the presence of mind to never compare yourself with someone who live-chained their BB.

Regards,

Dave

 

[ldgman1970]

I just started training in Kenpo, about three months now, and I don't know how one could truly learn this art without live instruction. I think they are a great as a reference guide, just got the Tatum Orange belt technique DVDs, but without an instructor to correct you and explain some of the finer nuances I don't know how you could do it on your own. I also think it is necessary to practice on a "dummy" that is actually trying to attack you whether it's in technique line or in sparring.

Also, not sure about the last comment on the quality of Kenpo training degrading but then again I am studying at Mr. Tatum's school in Pasadena.

 

[Danjo]

I have to agree with the general sentiment here. I use tapes as references and that works out fine, but I have had years of live training in basics etc. so that I know how something is supposed to feel when it's done right. Unless you have had that experience, it would be mighty tough to tell on your own. Of course, if there is just plain no instructors around where you live, then it might be better than nothing. Be prepared, though, to have your technique massively corrected when and if you ever do go to live training.

 

[Seig]

All in all, some good stuff here. My opinionis this, video is a great reference resource. It is a great reminder on material if you do not have an instructor right there in your face. It is, in my opinion, not a good primary instructional source.

 

[getgoin]

For a beginner I would say a real live person is best, hands done. For a beginner to learn from a video is a bad option, you don't get the contact you need, if someone learns by video and never has to option of sparring and doing application, or being hit in general you will fall back onto your pre kenpo abilities. If no one is there to correct anything bad before it becomes habit you could develope some serious problems. It may be harder to train with a live instructor, but it is best for a beginner.

For the advanced MA'ist just learning new ideas or studying something new with no intention or flasehoods of learning everything about a system from a few videos, I would say go for it. Why not learn something new. I purchase tapes of other systems and styles all the time. I have done MA long enough to know what to expect from a video. I also look at them as just a option, I may or may not get something out of them. Either way it was fun to watch (usually).

 

[MisterMike]

Some videos are OK to watch but they don't hear any questions you may have, so it's good to be under a teacher who can explain the details. I'd make sure your teacher has seen the tapes in case there is any differing material on them.

If you do not have a teacher, videos are one way to see what an art like Kenpo has to offer, but if there's one nearby, you should just walk into a school and check it out in person.

 

[MJS]

Here is an interesting article I came across. It brings up some good points, but there are a few things that I disagree with.

Thoughts/comments??

THE METHOD
The subjects were three women, all of whom were in their 20s and in good health. They were tasked with learn- 10 kenpo karate techniques. For some techniques, the mode of instruction was one-on-one training with a certified personal trainer who holds a black belt in the art. For others, it was by videotape.
All the techniques were taught on the same day. Two of the students learned in their homes, while the third learned in a commercial martial arts facility. Before each session, they were told to stretch their muscles and perform calisthenics. Then the training commenced.
Each live technique was performed three times by the instructor. Then the students practiced it with the instructor as the partner until they could execute it proficiently.
Each video-based technique was viewed three times. Then the students practiced it with the instructor, but he merely served as the attacker. He did not make corrections or offer advice.

THE OUTCOME
The study determined that all three students were able to effectively perform each technique for the instructor in fewer than 10 attempts. No systematic differences between the two methods of instruction were evident. The subjects appeared to learn the techniques equally well from either source. The tapes, however, imparted the skills at a much lower cost to the students.


Knowledge at Your Fingertips
By Eddie Ivester

Traditional martial artists frequently scoff at the idea of learning by video, arguing that you need a live instructor to guide you and critique your every move. But modern practitioners know that isn't quite true. For many parts of your training, a real instructor is not required.
In centuries past, when writing was still a luxury, a few innovative masters took advantage of it and recorded their secrets for posterity. When the public would hear mention of those books, they were often described as sacred texts that were valued as highly as human life. Warriors fought and died trying to protect them - or take possession of them. Within their pages lay information that could transform a fighter into a master.
Mind you, all this was taking place when books were nothing more than hand-written manuscripts with perhaps a few rough sketches sprinkled throughout. Now, in the 21st century, we enjoy a technology that enables us to record and play back moving images and sound. Video allows us to see and hear masters as they perform their techniques, yet some martial artists just can't grasp the worth of this. If those doubting Thomases lived 100 or 1,000 years ago, would they have harbored the same skepticism about the written word?
There's no difference between learning the martial arts from a video and learning any other course from a video. It all comes down to the quality of the information being provided on the tape and your motivation to absorb it. Although you may not be able to learn an entire art from a set of videos, as long as the information is comprehensive, you'll be able to advance by leaps and bounds.
Now that you're convinced that video-based training is a valid way to gain martial knowledge, let's look at seven reasons why training by video is a good thing:
** You can work out in the privacy of your home at your convenience.
** You can learn a style that's not offered in your area.
** You can advance in rank within your current art.
** You can check out the skills of an instructor before signing up for lessons.
** You can investigate a style before you spend time and money to find a school that teaches it.
** You can learn new ways of training and/or teaching.
** You can prepare yourself for tournaments by reviewing the styles you will face in the ring.
So whether you want to learn a new style, expand your technique base, advance in your current art, prep yourself for a tournament, or search for new training and teaching methods, you should not pass up videotapes. They represent the ultimate high-tech tool for learning the ancient arts of self-defense.

 

[Simon Curran]

I agree with the general populus here, I like to watch the tapes and see if I can pick up something I might have missed in class, but it is hard to see if a technique is going to work for you if you never practice it with live opponents.

Just my opinion.

 

[The Kai]

Find a teacher, don't let the general quality of Kenpo slip into the toliet. I know it's easy to get your rank from a mailbox, but training ain't about easy!

Todd

 

[shane23ss]

Well, it seems like most people agree that video tapes are not ALL bad, but wouldn't suggest that method for a beginner. I would have to say that I agree although my opinion is not educated. What I mean is that I don't own, nor have I ever seen a tape/dvd on the subject. The reason I started this thread was because it seems like every where I turn, some one is offering video/dvd's on training in Kenpo. I was wondering what people thought of that, because I think about when I was coming up through the ranks, and it seems to me that some things would be hard to get across via video. I would have to say that I think it's better than nothing if some one doesn't have a Kenpo school around.


Next question: What do you guys think about an advanced Kenpoist using video for promotion or even learning sub-level four via video?

 

[MJS]

Next question: What do you guys think about an advanced Kenpoist using video for promotion or even learning sub-level four via video?

Alot of it today comes down to marketing and the dollar! People want to make money, so of course, if someone had the chance to offer both live and video inst., the money factor will be greater. Alot of people do it just because the next guy is doing it. If one Kenpo inst. comes out with a series, of course, the rest are going to follow. Supply and demand.

As for learning SL4 by tape...well, I'm not an expert on the subject, but I'd have to say that would not be a wise move.

Mike

 

[shane23ss]

As for learning SL4 by tape...well, I'm not an expert on the subject, but I'd have to say that would not be a wise move.

Mike

I'm no expert on the subject either, I may be way off here. It may not even be possible to send SL4 info over video. Hopefully Doc will respond to this thread and set us straight.