Distance Training Doesn't Work

[Doc]

Whether or not you can learn something from video has nothing to do with the student, but the depth of the material. Sadly there is a great deal of "arts' you could assimilate reasonably from video, but those that you can are not worth learning. I could stand in front of you and teach you something, but if I didn't point out and explain the non-obvious subtleties, it wouldn't matter. Ed Parker did it all the time. People stood there, watched him, and walked away with absolutely nothing. Could you learn 'something' from video? Sure, but it would be useless compared to real martial material. Unfortunately the martial arts, in general, is dumbed down to the lowest common denominator, and even lower on video. As 'video reference notes' for real training, yes. Everything else - give me a break. After 50 years, I see this as a really bad joke that makes money. I get requests for 'distance learning' all the time and turn them down. I know you can't learn anything I teach that way. Video study is really the same as that well known Korean art. NoCanDo. Nope I'm with "Danjo" on this one. And say hello to John Bishop for me, we go waaaaay back.

 

[green meanie]

I think when you have a real love for the martial arts you to try to learn any way you can. When you can go to class, you go; when you can't you read, you search for info on the internet, you study video tapes, you do whatever you can to stay involved. I totally get that. I've been in the same situations myself. The thing I don't like about some of these 'distance learning' programs is the way some people have turned it into a scam where all you have to do is buy their video series and they'll make you an instant black belt.

 

[Hand Sword]

Amen to that!

 

[John Bishop]

I think I need to clarify a few things. It was never Dan's intention to learn Kajukenbo thru the use of the W.K.O. video series he purchased. He knew up front that THERE ARE NO "distance training / video testing" programs in the Kajukenbo system. The video's are a supplement to a students in school Kajukenbo training, or for experienced martial artists that may be able to pick up some additional material from the system.
Like many people with a Shaolin Kempo background, he first purchased the video's just to see what the root system of the Shaolin Kempo and many of the Hawaiian Kempo systems looked like.
For those who don't know Dan, he is a high school teacher with a master's degree, so he is no stranger to dedication and hard work. Because of the periodic upgrading needed for the teaching credential in his speciality, his college classes took precident over his martial arts classes the past year. When he did develop a interest in learning Kajukenbo, he started practicing with the videos until he could get into a regular class situation. He was not trying to earn any rank, just familiarize himself with some of the techniques before he could get back into regular training.
What he wrote in his first post was his honest evaluation of video training, verses live training with partners of various ranks, under the supervision of a instructor. And you also should know that he has brown belts in both Shaolin Kempo and Shotokan Karate. So, he was at a intermediate/advance level when he started training with the videos.
Most martial arts are very complex physical activities that take years or even decades of hard work to be somewhat competent at. That's why every good instructor still considers himself a student at heart.
It never ceases to amaze me when I see "Black Belt" programs that promise a black belt in 12-18 months. Because every school I've ever been affliated with students with 12-18 month in were usually purple or blue belts. Worst yet, are the video programs that come with a black belt certificate with the tapes. Or promise that you can get achieve black belt proficiency in a year or two.
It takes a solid 3-6 years of in class training under the watchful eye of a instructor, with partners of various ranks, sizes, speed, power before the average student is really proficient enough to become a 1st degree black belt.
So to think that a in-experienced person watching videos on his TV, and trying the material on his in-experienced friend, is actually going have the proficiency of a black belt in a couple years; is just ludicrous.
This video "black belt training" marketing scheme has been going on for probably 10 years or more. But I have yet to see any examples of excellent, good, or even fair black belts who have been totally trained via a video distance learning program.

 

[Doc]

Hey John. I never got the impression he was trying to learn from video. He's smarter than that, and I know Kajukenbo would have no parts of legitimizing that. Like most legitimate schools and styles, videos are only references for those who already study, or the curious lookie-loos.

 

[scottcatchot]

Good posts, I would like to way in my two cents.

Different people have different styles of learning whether it be visual, kinesthetic, auditory, etc it is fair to say people can learn from videos. I also weigh in on the side that videos in no way compares to havng the interactive plus of live instruction. WHat I have learned from my teaching experience is that the more ways you can utilize all the senses the higher the retention rate. So basically Get in there with everything you can, touch it, smell it, hear it, try to grab everything you can to use to learn your art. I think we can learn some from videos, but like most have stated here they can only take you so far. The same can be said for a live class that offers no sparring.

 

[scottcatchot]

oops guess I can't use correct words today, darn those homonyms.
I meant weigh in.

 

[Bigshadow]

Distance learning doesn't work unless you've already trained in the material live. The tapes are a great supplement, but they in no way are a substitute for actual instruction. People are just fooling themselves if they think otherwise.

I wholeheartedly agree! I do not train in Kempo but I believe this applies to many martial arts. When I started training, I tried to watch videos as I trained and I couldn't get anything from them. I gave up watching them. I spent more time reading about the training, that seemed to have more value to me, since there words described what I should feel, and this had a greater impact on my training in class. It hasn't been until fairly recent that I have seen value in me watching video. It is now that I can see the video and "feel" what is being done, because I have had it done to me in real life.

Great post!

 

[bushidomartialarts]

i've had some good luck with distance training for kenpo and some weapons, and one of the instructors at my school seems to just suck in kata he buys on video. so i have to disagree.

some caveats, though...

1. both dave and i are fairly experienced. i've been training 22 years, dave for 19. we have a solid grounding and understanding of movement.

2. dave and i practice what we learned from the tapes on one another, and on other students, regularly.

3. live instruction is definitely superior.

 

[Flying Crane]

I think when you have a real love for the martial arts you to try to learn any way you can. When you can go to class, you go; when you can't you read, you search for info on the internet, you study video tapes, you do whatever you can to stay involved. I totally get that. I've been in the same situations myself. The thing I don't like about some of these 'distance learning' programs is the way some people have turned it into a scam where all you have to do is buy their video series and they'll make you an instant black belt.

I agree with what you say about doing what you can if you can't be in class, but I think the time is better spent practicing what you have learned, rather than trying to learn a bunch of new techniques, or forms, or a whole new system.

I think videos can be useful for picking up ideas, and drills and such, but trying to learn concrete material and skills this way is something that I am very skeptical about.

Again, someone with a lot of prior experience may get something of value out of working with videos, but I think there are a lot of subtleties that just cannot get passed on thru video. And if someone is already highly experienced, they shouldn't need to use videos anyway. Their practice should already be solid.

A complete beginner, or someone with only a little experience is pretty much guaranteed to get very limited benefits, at best, if video learning is the only, or the primary way, he is learning.

 

[Flying Crane]

i've had some good luck with distance training for kenpo and some weapons, and one of the instructors at my school seems to just suck in kata he buys on video. so i have to disagree.

some caveats, though...

1. both dave and i are fairly experienced. i've been training 22 years, dave for 19. we have a solid grounding and understanding of movement.

2. dave and i practice what we learned from the tapes on one another, and on other students, regularly.

3. live instruction is definitely superior.

I appreciate your thoughts on this, especially the caveats to keep it real.

I also in the past have experimented with learning some Chinese forms from video. Ultimately, I let it all go, however, because I realized the forms have a lot of subtleties and movement quality that I could not grasp from video, without a teacher guiding me.

I also suggest that if you learned a form (or techniques, or a system) from video, and never had a chance to work with a real instructor to make sure you got it right, it would be a disservice to teach that material to any students. Until a good teacher helps you make sure you understand it beyond the gross movements, you cannot hope to know it well enough to justify teaching it.

 

[Danjo]

Whether or not you can learn something from video has nothing to do with the student, but the depth of the material. Sadly there is a great deal of "arts' you could assimilate reasonably from video, but those that you can are not worth learning. I could stand in front of you and teach you something, but if I didn't point out and explain the non-obvious subtleties, it wouldn't matter. Ed Parker did it all the time. People stood there, watched him, and walked away with absolutely nothing. Could you learn 'something' from video? Sure, but it would be useless compared to real martial material. Unfortunately the martial arts, in general, is dumbed down to the lowest common denominator, and even lower on video. As 'video reference notes' for real training, yes. Everything else - give me a break. After 50 years, I see this as a really bad joke that makes money. I get requests for 'distance learning' all the time and turn them down. I know you can't learn anything I teach that way. Video study is really the same as that well known Korean art. NoCanDo. Nope I'm with "Danjo" on this one. And say hello to John Bishop for me, we go waaaaay back.

Yep. You put it very nicely 'video reference notes' for real training' is the precise value of video's. Even simple things like which direction to step back in and where a lock is supposed to be placed and how close your hips are supposed to be to your opponent in order to make something work are lost when doing these techniques in the air.

I understand that some say that they are visual learners. That's great but the martial arts are not visual. They have to be felt. I think that many people have REDUCED them down to being no more than a visual show, but that sort of martial art has no interest for me. For instance, I'd rather something work than look pretty. If it can be both, great, but In the past I've seen people that had amazing dexterity and flexibility when doing the moves, but couldn't fight their way out of the proverbial paper bag. Reminds me of that bouncer that beat the crap out of Jean Claude Van Damme in New York a few years ago. Van Damme always had very pretty kicks!

 

[Danjo]

I think I need to clarify a few things. It was never Dan's intention to learn Kajukenbo thru the use of the W.K.O. video series he purchased. He knew up front that THERE ARE NO "distance training / video testing" programs in the Kajukenbo system. The video's are a supplement to a students in school Kajukenbo training, or for experienced martial artists that may be able to pick up some additional material from the system.

Exactly. You made it very clear from the start. The only Black Belt video course I have had access to is the Villari one. I haven't seen Tatum's or Chuck Sullivan's, or Cheif Roman's or anyone else's.

Like many people with a Shaolin Kempo background, he first purchased the video's just to see what the root system of the Shaolin Kempo and many of the Hawaiian Kempo systems looked like.

I had heard so many times how close Shaolin Kempo is to Kajukenbo, that I wanted a first hand look see. They Are NOT the same thing. There have been many many changes (additions and deletions) from Kajukenbo to Shaolin Kempo Karate in terms of material. The basics are pretty similar.

When he did develop a interest in learning Kajukenbo, he started practicing with the videos until he could get into a regular class situation. He was not trying to earn any rank, just familiarize himself with some of the techniques before he could get back into regular training.

Once again, exactly correct.

Most martial arts are very complex physical activities that take years or even decades of hard work to be somewhat competent at. That's why every good instructor still considers himself a student at heart.

Complex and physical is the very thing that makes live training a prerequisite to expertise. One just can't get that from the videos.

So to think that a in-experienced person watching videos on his TV, and trying the material on his in-experienced friend, is actually going have the proficiency of a black belt in a couple years; is just ludicrous.

That was my conclusion also. Even if I had had a uke the whole time, I'd have done certain things wrong and then concluded "It must not really work." However, when someone is ther showing you what you're doing wrong, you say, "Son of a gun! It works after all!"


Look, I feel for people who for whatever reason can't get to decent instruction, but it still doesn't mean that the video training is an adequate substitute. Perhaps someday someone will come along and prove me wrong on this one, but I'm pretty sceptical about this.


Dan