Delicate Hands

[Gyakuto102]

From time to time, my other half’s Karate teacher has the class striking pads which she says hurts her delicate hands. I’ve suggested she doesn’t participate since she uses her hands to examine patients at work but I think she wants to fit in.

Does anyone have any suggestions for unobtrusive hand protection she could subtly slip on for a bit of protection for pad work?

 

[Marsha Larts]

From time to time, my other half’s Karate teacher has the class striking pads which she says hurts her delicate hands. I’ve suggested she doesn’t participate since she uses her hands to examine patients at work but I think she wants to fit in.

Does anyone have any suggestions for unobtrusive hand protection she could subtly slip on for a bit of protection for pad work?

A pair of snug fitting driving gloves for a bit of support.

A couple lengths of 3/4" or smaller dia. wooden dowel with the ends radiused or rounded, and a little shorter than the width of her fist. Or something similar with the same oval shape as a bic lighter.

 

[jks919974]

It depends on what's hurting.

If the skin is tearing, light work gloves, driving gloves, etc. can protect the skin. But if it's more like the joints or tendons -- then real bag gloves and probably wraps are probably the best choice. Consistent work on conditioning the hands would reduce the issue, but might be problematic for her work.

 

[Prince_Alarming102]

Screwfix do a good pair of suede gardening gloves

 

[Gyakuto102]

A pair of snug fitting driving gloves for a bit of support.

I did think of something along those line…

A couple lengths of 3/4" or smaller dia. wooden dowel with the ends radiused or rounded, and a little shorter than the width of her fist. Or something similar with the same oval shape as a bic lighter.

…for…?

 

[Gyakuto102]

For simplicity (for me!), I ordered her a pair of Tokaido gloves (with the JKA logo)…she’ll like that touch.

 

[Marsha Larts]

…for…?

Just offered that suggestion without knowing the specifics of how hitting pads affects her hands, whether it's abrasions or something to do with fingers and knuckles getting misaligned or stressed unevenly due to the fists hitting at unfavorable angles, or other complications that might cause issues. "Delicate" covers a lot of territory.

Dowels support the entire hand/fist and keep the phalanxes in alignment all the way down to the wrist. They make a huge difference in structural integrity. Of course, if there's a lot of opening and closing the hands during padwork, dowels wouldn't be practical.

 

[Marsha Larts]

For simplicity (for me!), I ordered her a pair of Tokaido gloves (with the JKA logo)…she’ll like that touch.
View attachment 33626

View attachment 33627

Ah, gloves with wrist coverings

Instead of driving gloves, snug fitting fencing gauntlets might be ok

 

[drop bear103]

Quick wraps?

 

[Flying Crane]

These are hand-held striking pads, like boxing type? Or something else? I gather it isn’t a heavy bag?

In what way does it hurt her hands? Skin abraisions? Joint injury? Something else?

 

[Flying Crane]

For simplicity (for me!), I ordered her a pair of Tokaido gloves (with the JKA logo)…she’ll like that touch.
View attachment 33626

View attachment 33627

Nothing unobtrusive or subtle about these…

I actually think these could cause more injuries to the wrist, if striking anything with any force at all. Looks like a very unstable striking platform that could easily roll.

 

[Gyakuto102]

These are hand-held striking pads, like boxing type? Or something else? I gather it isn’t a heavy bag?

In what way does it hurt her hands? Skin abraisions? Joint injury? Something else?

She’s just a very petite woman with proportional hand-bone structure and yet, due to her ability to harness hip rotation, body waving and indeed gravity (she has good technique!), is able to exert a disproportionately large punching force. So, indeed, all of the issues you’ve suggested when she’s striking hand-held pads.

She’s more of a kata person and indeed it seems the variety of Shotokan her dojo teaches has such an emphasis (and ‘self-defense’ ) So I advised she simply adjusts her ‘maai’ to reduce impact force.

The gloves are a stocking filler and if jingly belled versions with Father Christmas’s face on them were available, I’d’ve bought those! Yes, they are a bit chunky, but that’ll suggest expense and additional credit for me. That’s what Christmas is all about especially when she’ll have bought me nothing.

 

[Flying Crane]

She’s just a very petite woman with proportional hand-bone structure and yet, due to her ability to harness hip rotation, body waving and indeed gravity (she has good technique!), is able to exert a disproportionately large punching force. So, indeed, all of the issues you’ve suggested when she’s striking hand-held pads.

She’s more of a kata person and indeed it seems the variety of Shotokan her dojo teaches has such an emphasis (and ‘self-defense’ ) So I advised she simply adjusts her ‘maai’ to reduce impact force.

The gloves are a stocking filler and if jingly belled versions with Father Christmas’s face on them were available, I’d’ve bought those! Yes, they are a bit chunky, but that’ll suggest expense and additional credit for me. That’s what Christmas is all about especially when she’ll have bought me nothing.

Well Christmas gift aside, my personal approach and the advice that I give is to never use gloves or wrist wrap when striking, including on a heavy punching bag (mine is 85-90 pounds). I feel that gloves and wraps can give you support and protection in ways that hide mistakes that would give you an injury if you ever needed to strike someone for real, in self defense, when gloves and wraps will be unavailable. Part of the lesson is learning to hit for real and not be injured by it. Correct angle and approach, how to make the fist, how to deliver the power and how much power you can deliver without getting injured yourself. If this is done regularly, the hands can be conditioned and more power can be safely delivered. It must be a gradual process. Nobody should just start slamming away at a heavy bag as hard as they can, from the get-go. You build up over time, use caution, and limit yourself so you don’t cross the line into injury. Gradually, that line moves farther out.

I’ve done most of my work on a heavy bag and not hand pads. Hand pads of course are not as solid as a heavy bag so the risks should be less when striking them, but risks are still there.

And I have often used a good dit da jow, applied before and after training. For what it’s worth. I’ve never suffered an injury beyond some scraped knuckles if my fist skidded across the surface of the bag, in a less-than-straight punch.

 

[Gyakuto102]

Well Christmas gift aside, my personal approach and the advice that I give is to never use gloves or wrist wrap when striking, including on a heavy punching bag (mine is 85-90 pounds). I feel that gloves and wraps can give you support and protection in ways that hide mistakes that would give you an injury if you ever needed to strike someone for real, in self defense,

She’ll never need to do that. There’s never a scenario for her needing to defend herself and if she should ever, I’m sure she’d risk a sprained or even broken wrist to smack someone in the mouth.

I think we tend to exaggerate the risk from an unprovoked attack. Yes, a young man who frequents places where others become intoxicated and are in ‘high spirits’ or dark alleys in bad parts of town at night but she’s a senior medical doctor with a car and mobile phone who goes to work, then home and to the dojo twice a week via that car (and she’s covered by the AA). For example, in one UK survey year, only 0.3% of adults were victims of robbery, yet 9% of those surveyed were ‘very worried’ they would experience it—30 times higher than the actual victimisation rate. Homicide rates in the UK remain relatively low by international standards, with around 9.7 homicides per million people. London's homicide rate, for instance, is several times lower than that of many major U.S. cities and London is a veritable cesspool of criminals and general miscreants (which seems to include the Metropolitan police force)! In the UK, 8 out of 10 people in one survey experienced no crime of any sort in the previous 12 months.

Why do we have this exaggerated perception? Well we’re martial artist and we think in these terms all the time, and news outlets often focus heavily on violent and sexual crimes because they have higher news value, despite these crimes making up a small percentage of overall offences. This creates an impression that such events are more common than they actually are. Overall crime in the UK has fallen, although certain urban areas or specific communities may experience concentrated issues, such as gang-related violence, which contributes to a feeling of tension and fear. There are feelings of safety that vary significantly across different demographic groups. People from ethnic minority backgrounds, those living in deprived areas, disabled people, and women are more likely to feel unsafe, regardless of the overall statistics.

Street violence may be less common than perceived, but other forms of crime like fraud and computer misuse have increased significantly and cause public worry; no amount of bag/pad work will help with that

I’m aware that things are very different in, say, the USA.

when gloves and wraps will be unavailable. Part of the lesson is learning to hit for real and not be injured by it. Correct angle and approach, how to make the fist, how to deliver the power and how much power you can deliver without getting injured yourself. If this is done regularly, the hands can be conditioned and more power can be safely delivered. It must be a gradual process. Nobody should just start slamming away at a heavy bag as hard as they can, from the get-go. You build up over time, use caution, and limit yourself so you don’t cross the line into injury. Gradually, that line moves farther out.

Also she examines patients everyday so having obviously toughened hands when it’s unnecessary is unprofessional.

I’ve done most of my work on a heavy bag and not hand pads. Hand pads of course are not as solid as a heavy bag so the risks should be less when striking them, but risks are still there.

And I have often used a good dit da jow, applied before and after training. For what it’s worth. I’ve never suffered an injury beyond some scraped knuckles if my fist skidded across the surface of the bag, in a less-than-straight punch.

How dare you have a less-than-straight punch

 

[Flying Crane]

She’ll never need to do that. There’s never a scenario for her needing to defend herself and if she should ever, I’m sure she’d risk a sprained or even broken wrist to smack someone in the mouth.

I think we tend to exaggerate the risk from an unprovoked attack. Yes, a young man who frequents places where others become intoxicated and are in ‘high spirits’ or dark alleys in bad parts of town at night but she’s a senior medical doctor with a car and mobile phone who goes to work, then home and to the dojo twice a week via that car (and she’s covered by the AA). For example, in one UK survey year, only 0.3% of adults were victims of robbery, yet 9% of those surveyed were ‘very worried’ they would experience it—30 times higher than the actual victimisation rate. Homicide rates in the UK remain relatively low by international standards, with around 9.7 homicides per million people. London's homicide rate, for instance, is several times lower than that of many major U.S. cities and London is a veritable cesspool of criminals and general miscreants (which seems to include the Metropolitan police force)! In the UK, 8 out of 10 people in one survey experienced no crime of any sort in the previous 12 months.

Why do we have this exaggerated perception? Well we’re martial artist and we think in these terms all the time, and news outlets often focus heavily on violent and sexual crimes because they have higher news value, despite these crimes making up a small percentage of overall offences. This creates an impression that such events are more common than they actually are. Overall crime in the UK has fallen, although certain urban areas or specific communities may experience concentrated issues, such as gang-related violence, which contributes to a feeling of tension and fear. There are feelings of safety that vary significantly across different demographic groups. People from ethnic minority backgrounds, those living in deprived areas, disabled people, and women are more likely to feel unsafe, regardless of the overall statistics.

Street violence may be less common than perceived, but other forms of crime like fraud and computer misuse have increased significantly and cause public worry; no amount of bag/pad work will help with that

I’m aware that things are very different in, say, the USA.

I actually do not have an exaggerated perception of the frequency of violence. I agree that for most of us (exceptions do exist) have little danger of needing to defend ourselves. I simply feel that if one is to train a fighting method, why not train in a way consistent with making it functional? Otherwise it feels like pretending. If you are going to punch something, learn to do it without extra protections like gloves and wraps.

Also she examines patients everyday so having obviously toughened hands when it’s unnecessary is unprofessional.

I have never had hands that look obviously toughened. My hands look completely ordinary and always have.

How dare you have a less-than-straight punch

Oh well, even I can’t be perfect all the time…

 

[Gyakuto102]

I actually do not have an exaggerated perception of the frequency of violence. I agree that for most of us (exceptions do exist) have little danger of needing to defend ourselves. I simply feel that if one is to train a fighting method, why not train in a way consistent with making it functional? Otherwise it feels like pretending. If you are going to punch something, learn to do it without extra protections like gloves and wraps.

Yes I completely understand that sentiment, but we are sort of pretending, aren’t we? Especially in the sort of art I practise But when I practiced Wado Ryu Karate, I did punch bags and especially a makiwara and developed ugly calluses but never actually punched anyone, ever So I stopped. After years of moisturing and using retinol on my first two knuckles, they’re still discoloured

I have never had hands that look obviously toughened. My hands look completely ordinary and always have.

When the blokes in my gym disparagingly comment on me using training gloves I say it’s because I like soft feminine palms when I ‘touch myself’. They obviously like the feel of the rough hands of a bricklayer!

Oh well, even I can’t be perfect all the time…

Yes, it is a great burden for us…

 

[Flying Crane]

Yes I completely understand that sentiment, but we are sort of pretending, aren’t we? Especially in the sort of art I practise But when I practiced Wado Ryu Karate, I did punch bags and especially a makiwara and developed ugly calluses but never actually punched anyone, ever So I stopped. After years of moisturing and using retinol on my first two knuckles, they’re still discoloured

I would say don’t sell yourself short. Just because we practice an old method for which the modern world has little need at the moment, does not mean we are simply pretending. The skills are still real, if the training is done properly. I would say that we practice according to the needs of the reality in which we live. History can be circular, and someday we might experience a new dark ages (I feel we in the US may be moving in that direction right now) and eventually these skills may find new relevance in day-to-day life. It might be gradual, it might take a couple generations or more to reach that point, but it could happen. It might not be you and I, it might be our descendants, either in blood lineage or martial lineage, who find the need. But we may be part of that transmission.

Yes, it is a great burden for us…

Oh indeed!

 

[Gyakuto102]

I would say don’t sell yourself short. Just because we practice an old method for which the modern world has little need at the moment, does not mean we are simply pretending. The skills are still real, if the training is done properly.

Isn’t it a bit like playing a rally driving simulator compared to rallying?

I would say that we practice according to the needs of the reality in which we live. History can be circular, and someday we might experience a new dark ages

Oh don’t say that! I could live without an freshly brewed coffee and French pastry on a Saturday morning!

(I feel we in the US may be moving in that direction right now)

Recognise

and eventually these skills may find new relevance in day-to-day life.

I think that real life stress testing would show definitively the worth of our training! Having said that, being able to punch a bit better than the average person or kick at all competently gives one a great advantage.

It might be gradual, it might take a couple generations or more to reach that point, but it could happen. It might not be you and I, it might be our descendants, either in blood lineage or martial lineage, who find the need. But we may be part of that transmission.

You’ve really frightened me now! I’m going to start stockpiling French (and Danish)

Oh indeed!

Perfection is our cross to bear, Flying Crane…

 

[isshinryuronin]

I agree that for most of us (exceptions do exist) have little danger of needing to defend ourselves. I simply feel that if one is to train a fighting method, why not train in a way consistent with making it functional? Otherwise it feels like pretending.

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. MA is similar to life insurance, giving us peace of mind in case the unforeseen happens, if not to ourselves, an innocent stranger. Others without the skills will only be able to helplessly observe violent injustice. If it's not functional MA is simply exercise.

Just because we practice an old method for which the modern world has little need at the moment, does not mean we are simply pretending. The skills are still real, if the training is done properl

Even in iaido/kenjitsu, proper training develops poise (mental and physical), commitment, decisiveness and martial spirit. These are not anachronistic - They are applicable to our everyday lives. Our modern world does have need of these elements of old TMA method.

 

[Gyakuto102]

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

MA is similar to life insurance, giving us peace of mind in case the unforeseen happens, if not to ourselves, an innocent stranger. Others without the skills will only be able to helplessly observe violent injustice. If it's not functional MA is simply exercise.

I agree with that on a visceral level and I like to believe I’d be that person who’d intervene on behalf of an innocent stranger (although ‘innocence’ might be hard to assess quickly). But then I hear the local news report in my head,

“A local man, Gyakuto Maximus Gluteus, was pointlessly killed at the weekend when he intervened in a gangland drug deal that became violent. He attempted to protect a pretty, scantily clad female gang member (who had previously been convicted of manslaughter) as she was selling very dangerous drugs to a fully-tattooed, dangerous looking man (with a partially completed ‘Marishiten’ chest piece) who is known to sell them on to orphan children. The deal appeared had somehow gone wrong and was becoming violent. A police spokesperson said at a press conference, the sacrifice made by the exceptionally handsome Dr Maximus Gluteus, had been pointless as the dealers were under observation by undercover operatives. He leaves behind a partner who has moved on alarmingly quickly and an anxious, slightly aggressive cat, Sammy.

Even in iaido/kenjitsu, proper training develops poise (mental and physical), commitment, decisiveness and martial spirit.

I’ve often wonder if these arts do give the practitioner something useful when they don’t have a sword on their person, or could it just be dangerous overconfidence?