Debate on the existence of Chi

[terryl965]

-I have stated a dozen times on this thread that science is subject to change. Chi may some day be explained scientificaly. It has not to date been.

Are you kidding me, I never said it was what I said if you can understand is why do you have ahard problem in seeing other people views about there beliefs, why is it your way or the hiway!!!!
Terry

 

[RoninPimp]

Are you kidding me, I never said it was what I said if you can understand is why do you have ahard problem in seeing other people views about there beliefs, why is it your way or the hiway!!!!
Terry

-I haven't attacked anybody's beliefs. I haven't told anybody to not believe in chi. I have simply repeated again and again that hasn't been proven in any scientific way. Its not my way, because I certainly didn't invent the scientific method.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

And numerous people here have indicated that your understanding of science is narrow, as the Chinese science of medicine does accept it.

 

[RoninPimp]

And numerous people here have indicated that your understanding of science is narrow, as the Chinese science of medicine does accept it.

Anybody can accept it if they want. Accepting it is not proving it scientifically.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Well, over 2 billion people accept it as proven. Considering the number of medical treatments that use it such as reiki, acupuncture, acupressures, qigong, etc, dating back centuries, with plenty of observation, analysis, etc, I feel it is safe to say it exists.

You just can't stick it in a bottle and put in on a shelf at Walmart.

 

[DuneViking]

Originally posted by RONINPIMP:

"My only point was that chi has not been proven using the scientific method. "
End Quote


1. So, prove your point. You assert, intentionally or unintentionally, the premise that "chi has not been proven using the scientific method." . You provide no disseration whatsoever.

2. You assert knoweldge of science and the scientific method. Again, you provide no dissertation whatsoever.

3. I support your call for the mods in the early postings to the response that added nothing but cuts to the discussion-shame on them.

4. If, by definition, chi is a "life force all posses" (may the force be with you all!) I submit it may be proven, scientifically with empirical evidence, purely from Western Society.

Consider :
Exhibit A) will to live. One may not measure this in any desired units, but like binary language it can be present or not-thus measurable. It has also been repeated many times. Critically injured or infermed patients who ought to have died did not, for no other reason than the will to live.

Exhibit B) superhuman strength. A person with a trapped loved one able to move otherwise impossibly heavy objects to save them. One may not measure this in any desired units, but like binary language it can be present or not-thus measurable. It has also been repeated many times.

Exhibit C) Scientific Method. If any scientist whishes to prove a theory, as you assert, chi has not been proven using the scientific method, then the scientist goes at it. SCIENTIFIC METHOD seeks to disprove a theory, if that fails it is considered proof. Scientific Method does not seek to prove a theory in any other way because someone might come along and disprove it.

5. Your contributions lack a genuine appearance of understanding of the principles involved in both science and the scientific method as well as presenting a prima facia case and accepting the burden of proof which is yours, but instead using a fallacy of logic to place that burden on others.
Shame on you, if intenntional. :asian:

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Dune,
1 side point. Ronin is well aware of how to properly report a problem with a thread. It's on par with watching a house burn and complaining that no one called the fire department, while holding a functional phone in their hand. If you think there is a problem with anyones (including my) posts, report it. Don't wait for it to be found, even if mods are involved in a thread. We're human too.

 

[RoninPimp]

Well, over 2 billion people accept it as proven. Considering the number of medical treatments that use it such as reiki, acupuncture, acupressures, qigong, etc, dating back centuries, with plenty of observation, analysis, etc, I feel it is safe to say it exists.

You just can't stick it in a bottle and put in on a shelf at Walmart.

-Two billion? Please. What alternate universe did you pull that number from? All those things you listed have theory based on chi existing. Results with those treatments aren't repeatable consistantly in a controlled enviroment. That's why, guess what.....it doesn't prove the existance of chi.

 

[RoninPimp]

Originally posted by RONINPIMP:

"My only point was that chi has not been proven using the scientific method. "
End Quote


1. So, prove your point. You assert, intentionally or unintentionally, the premise that "chi has not been proven using the scientific method." . You provide no disseration whatsoever.

2. You assert knoweldge of science and the scientific method. Again, you provide no dissertation whatsoever.

3. I support your call for the mods in the early postings to the response that added nothing but cuts to the discussion-shame on them.

4. If, by definition, chi is a "life force all posses" (may the force be with you all!) I submit it may be proven, scientifically with empirical evidence, purely from Western Society.

Consider :
Exhibit A) will to live. One may not measure this in any desired units, but like binary language it can be present or not-thus measurable. It has also been repeated many times. Critically injured or infermed patients who ought to have died did not, for no other reason than the will to live.

Exhibit B) superhuman strength. A person with a trapped loved one able to move otherwise impossibly heavy objects to save them. One may not measure this in any desired units, but like binary language it can be present or not-thus measurable. It has also been repeated many times.

Exhibit C) Scientific Method. If any scientist whishes to prove a theory, as you assert, chi has not been proven using the scientific method, then the scientist goes at it. SCIENTIFIC METHOD seeks to disprove a theory, if that fails it is considered proof. Scientific Method does not seek to prove a theory in any other way because someone might come along and disprove it.

5. Your contributions lack a genuine appearance of understanding of the principles involved in both science and the scientific method as well as presenting a prima facia case and accepting the burden of proof which is yours, but instead using a fallacy of logic to place that burden on others.
Shame on you, if intenntional. :asian:

-You can't be serious. You don't understand the scientific method either it appears. For yet another time... I cannot prove a negative. People here claim chi exists. To prove that scientifically, the burden of proof lies with them. Wikipedia is your friend. Or any 7th grade science teacher.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

-Two billion? Please. What alternate universe did you pull that number from? All those things you listed have theory based on chi existing. Results with those treatments aren't repeatable consistantly in a controlled enviroment. That's why, guess what.....it doesn't prove the existance of chi.

TCM is the dominant form of medical treatment in China and it's satellites.
What is the population of China?
1.3 Billion according to the CIA.

Sixty percent of Europeans are using TCM, according to information at the first Western Pacific Regional Forum for the Harmonization of Herbal Medicines (FHH) in Shanghai.
http://www.china.org.cn/english/China/108026.htm

Traditional Chinese medicine has been accepted by more than 120 countries and regions in the world, according to a conference held in Beijing recently.
http://www.china.org.cn/english/scitech/148672.htm

As to Wiki, it is only as accurate as those who edit it. Biases and politics creep into it's entries regularly, so it is not safe to rely on as a sole reference.
Again, I have repeatedly rebutted your limited and simplistic view of science and the universe, without success.

But, I agree with Harlock. Continuing to debate this with you is futile.
I'm done.

 

[shesulsa]

We run, again, into the premise that RoninPimp's idea of science is ONE kind of science - western science. And of course, that's all that matters because western science is the newest science and we are far better outfitted scientifically to prove things scientifically and if we can't do it, then the fault obviously lies with either the attempting prover or the thing being studied, NOT the method.

Actually, RoninPimp, YOU are putting FAITH in the WESTERN SCIENTIFIC METHOD to define your parameters of living and existence.

 

[RoninPimp]

TCM is the dominant form of medical treatment in China and it's satellites.
What is the population of China?
1.3 Billion according to the CIA.

Sixty percent of Europeans are using TCM, according to information at the first Western Pacific Regional Forum for the Harmonization of Herbal Medicines (FHH) in Shanghai.
http://www.china.org.cn/english/China/108026.htm

Traditional Chinese medicine has been accepted by more than 120 countries and regions in the world, according to a conference held in Beijing recently.
http://www.china.org.cn/english/scitech/148672.htm

As to Wiki, it is only as accurate as those who edit it. Biases and politics creep into it's entries regularly, so it is not safe to rely on as a sole reference.
Again, I have repeatedly rebutted your limited and simplistic view of science and the universe, without success.

But, I agree with Harlock. Continuing to debate this with you is futile.
I'm done.

-How can you say the entire population of China believes in chi? That is absurd. And LOL @ the Shanghai Daily as a source. I am well aware of Wikipeias potential problems. The scientific method is not a contoversal or political topic there, only here. Check any 7th grade science book. You have NOT rebutted the scientific method. You have only refused to accept it.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

As I said, Continuing to debate this with you is futile.
I'm done.

 

[RoninPimp]

We run, again, into the premise that RoninPimp's idea of science is ONE kind of science - western science. And of course, that's all that matters because western science is the newest science and we are far better outfitted scientifically to prove things scientifically and if we can't do it, then the fault obviously lies with either the attempting prover or the thing being studied, NOT the method.

Actually, RoninPimp, YOU are putting FAITH in the WESTERN SCIENTIFIC METHOD to define your parameters of living and existence.

-There is only ONE scientific method. I believe in the scientific method because it is empirical. Not because of faith. If you have a problem with the scientific method, you should take it up with Newton, Einstein, and Hawking. They also believed in the scientific method.

 

[shesulsa]

-There is only ONE scientific method. I believe in the scientific method because it is empirical. Not because of faith. If you have a problem with the scientific method, you should take it up with Newton, Einstein, and Hawking. They also believed in the scientific method.

I don't know about the other two, but Einstein also believed in God.

 

[RoninPimp]

I don't know about the other two, but Einstein also believed in God.

-Newton was a very religious man too. How does that prove the existance of chi?

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Last comment.

I guess Chinese scientists aren't real scientists then.

"Chi refers to the vital energy present in all living things. Thus, Chi Kung literally means “the working of air or breath”, but it is more complicated than this, because it refers to the working of the invidible vital energy of the human body. Chi is the vital energy which animates all organisms; you cannot live without Chi. It is found wherever there is life: from the moment of conception to the moment just before death, Chi is present, being consumed and constantly being replenished, It is present wherever there is movement. Chi is the source of growth vigor in all living things, including plants, animals, and micro organisms. There is no exact equivalent to the concept of Chi in Western science, but Chinese scientists regard Chi as a substantial material that has been objectively verified to exist. Chi Kung is the internal function of conscious thought which is the highest stage of activity in the cerebral cortex."
Sheng Keng Yun

Sheng Keng Yun learned Chi Kung when she was very ill. Her health improved so dramatically that she became completely involved in working with Chi Energy. She has spent nearly forty years researching, mastering, and teaching Taoist, Buddhist, and Medical Chi Kung, as well as Tai Chi Chuan. She has taught English and Russian at Yunnan University, is a member of the prestigious CHinese Chi Kung Scientific Academy, and author of Key to Spoken English.

and

"What is very fascinating with Dr. Yan Xin's work, is that he is using modern scientific methods and tools to prove (to the Western mind) that the focusing of chi onto substance such as DNA can be measured. Besides conducting studies, he has given Chi-Emitting Lectures to millions of people. In these lectures, he sends out healing energy to the audience, in which people may be healed of an affliction, and he teaches them a form of meditation in which they can learn to heal themselves."

Dr. Yan Xin

Dr. Yan Xin (pronounced yan shin) is a physician of the Chinese Traditional Medicine Research Institute of Chongqing, Sichuan province, China. Before he studied Chinese traditional medicine, he studied in two colleges of Western medicine in China. He is a graduate of the University of Chinese Traditional Medicine in Sichuan and has taught Chinese traditional medicine for five years. During the past few years, he has engaged in scientific research on Chinese traditional conception of the body. He has made many successful scientific studies in cooperation with major research institutes and universities both in China and abroad.

On top of his formal medical education, Dr. Yan received extensive training in traditional Chinese Qigong since he was four years old. Qigong is a mental and physical training method which enables human beings to acquire skill or strength through working with the body's bioenergy. It is the basis of acupuncture, traditional Chinese medicine, and most styles of Martial Arts. One of the most attractive features of Qigong is its effectiveness in health maintenance and self healing of many chronic conditions. A well trained Qigong practitioner can also utilize the bioenergy called "Qi" to treat other patients. As one of the highest level Qigong masters, Dr. Yan is well known for his ability to treat difficult diseases including some terminal cases.

General Research Findings

In exploring the secrets of Qigong, he has collaborated with Beijing University, Qinghua University, the Chinese Academy of Sciences, and other scientific research organizations. The scope of his experiments has been extremely broad, they have included the fields of Medicine, Biology, Physics, Nuclear Energy, Chemistry, Optics, Astronomy, Geology, Industry, and Agriculture. The results of his research shows that the latent potential that every human being carries far exceeds the knowledge of contempary sciences.

As a result of Dr. Yan Xin's research, it has been shown that the mind power or Qi emitted by a trained Qigong master can influence or change the molecular structure of many test samples, including those of DNA and RNA, even if these test samples are 6 to 2,000 kilometers away from the master. Qi can also effect the half life of radioactive isotopes and the polarization plane of a beam of light as emitted from a Helium-Neon laser. His discoveries are changing the way modern science is viewed, and challenging many of its assumptions. Up to the present time, he has published thirty-six scientific papers in collaboration with other scientists. Some of the research results have already been put into use in industrial areas in China.

and

Dr. Yan Xin on Scientific Qigong Research

How Does Chi (Qi) Relate to Science, and What Do Leading Scientists Think about Chi (Qi)?

A number of experts and highly accomplished professors have recognized some of these scientific qigong experiments. Preliminary observations and reports on scientific qigong experiments suggest the following conclusions about chi (qi) and are supported by many professors:

* Chi can be observed, measured and quantified by precise instruments;
* Chi has the properties of matter;
* Chi has the properties of energy;
* Chi conveys comprehensive information content, or has the characteristics of information; preliminary results reveal that:
* Chi emitted by the human body to achieve certain effects, is subject to the regulation and influence of human thoughts and is influenced or disturbed by the emotions of the participants of an experiment, as well as the experimental design and environment.



The above five points are summarized from the perspective of scientific research by a number of scientists based on newly discovered phenomena. Further experiments have demonstrated that external Chi (qi) possesses multiple attributes.

...

"To summarize, based on a series of qigong experiments I have conducted over the last ten years in collaboration with many leading universities and scientific institutions in China (including, but not limited to, Tsinghua University, Beijing University, Zhongshan University, and within the Academia Sinica, the Institute of High Energy Physics, the Institute of Biology, the Institute of Electrical Engineering, and the Institute of Microbiology), we have preliminarily discovered that the qi of qigong has properties of matter, energy, and information. Moreover, qi can be influenced, disturbed, or controlled by the thoughts of a qi-emitter or people nearby. At the same time, according to different purposes of the experiments, qi can also display different attributes, such as being bi-directional, distance-transcending, self-controllable, reversible, and targeting. Some experiments involving chain reactions have also been successfully completed. "

The scientific papers on these qigong experiments have been rigorously reviewed by highly accomplished academics, including Professor Qian Xuesen (Tsien Hsue-sen), former Chairman and current Honorary Chairman of Chinese National Association of Scientists, Ph.D., California Institute of Technology, formerly Goddard Professor, Jet Propulsion Laboratory, California Institute of Technology; Professor Zhao Zhongyao, an eminent expert on nuclear physics in China, member, Academia Sinica, an early academic advisor to Dr. C.N. Yang who later won a Nobel Price in physics (being a member of Academia Sinica is roughly equivalent to being a fellow of the U.S. National Academy of Sciences); Professor Bei Shizhang, biophysics expert, world renowned biophysics teacher, member, Academia Sinica; Professor Feng Xinfang, microbiologist, member, Academia Sinica; and Professor Hu Haichang, thermophysicist, member, Academia Sinica. After they became aware of, participated in, or reviewed the scientific papers on the qigong experiments I conducted in collaboration with a number of experts and professors from prestigious Chinese universities, such as Tsinghua University and Beijing University, they all acknowledged that qigong is highly scientific in nature.

Hmm....now, those are interesting reads.
And, it looks to meet the so called "scientific" criteria that you specified Pimp. Guess you aren't as up on science as you claim. I took it for several years in high school and collage, not stopping at 7th grade.

So, now that we have some scientists that have done it "correctly", maybe we can move on from debating it's "existence".

 

[shesulsa]

-Newton was a very religious man too. How does that prove the existance of chi?

It doesn't. It proves that even very scientific men accept things which cannot be proven scientifically because even the utmost echelon of science itself can do what you cannot - or will not - accept that science does not and cannot possibly prove everything that is ... is.

 

[shesulsa]

It doesn't. It proves that even very scientific men accept things which cannot be proven scientifically because even the utmost echelon of science itself can do what you cannot - or will not - accept that science does not and cannot possibly prove everything that is ... is.

Which further proves that while you try to make a scientific argument, all you are really doing is arguing for arguments sake ... stirring up the garbage ... which is indicative of trolling ... which is against the rules on MartialTalk.

Oh - and it also means ... you're wrong.

 

[RoninPimp]

It doesn't. It proves that even very scientific men accept things which cannot be proven scientifically because even the utmost echelon of science itself can do what you cannot - or will not - accept that science does not and cannot possibly prove everything that is ... is.

-You are defending your belief. I have not attacked your belief. I have only said your belief has not been proved scientificaly.