Debate on the existence of Chi

[Bob Hubbard]

And doesn't help yours for the non existence.
We are at an impasse.

 

[RoninPimp]

And once again you want me to prove a negative. Nobody on the planet can do that, just like nobody on the planet can prove the existance of chi. Do you still not understand that the burden of proof lies with you? The impasse is due to your lack of understanding of 7th grade science.

 

[Andrew Green]

Burden of proof only exists if they wish to convince you that it does, I doubt that is what they are doing.

Like God, people can choose to believe that it exists without scientific proof, since the belief is not founded on scientific proof, citing the lack of such proof is likely not going to change anyones mind....

And once again you want me to prove a negative. Nobody on the planet can do that, just like nobody on the planet can prove the existance of chi. Do you still not understand that the burden of proof lies with you? The impasse is due to your lack of understanding of 7th grade science.

 

[RoninPimp]

Burden of proof only exists if they wish to convince you that it does, I doubt that is what they are doing.

Like God, people can choose to believe that it exists without scientific proof, since the belief is not founded on scientific proof, citing the lack of such proof is likely not going to change anyones mind....

-You are correct. They believe in something unknowable and unprovable by scientific means. I would go away if they would admit it and say just that.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

-You are correct. They believe in something unknowable and unprovable by scientific means. I would go away if they would admit it and say just that.

Evidence? There's documented proof of chi on qigong and meditation and yoga, and all their benefits in reference to chi on the human body. Go look it up.

 

[Andrew Green]

While I do believe their are benefits to those activities on the human body, and that those benefits have likely been demonstrated, I don't think I have come across any scientific evidence gathered from them that point to the existance of chi in a scientific sense.

In my mind Chi is simply the method of explaining those benefits and visible effects, not actually a "real" entity.

 

[RoninPimp]

Evidence? There's documented proof of chi on qigong and meditation and yoga, and all their benefits in reference to chi on the human body. Go look it up.

-You are mistaken or lying. There is zero scientific proof of chi. If you have some, there are a lot of scientists with Phd's that would want to speak to you.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

I am neither. The information is out there. Try google.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I think a bit of clarification is needed on word meaning here.

Definition of empiricism

The view that experience, especially of the senses, is the only source of knowledge.
Employment of empirical methods, as in science.
An empirical conclusion.
The practice of medicine that disregards scientific theory and relies solely on practical experience.

Definition of empirical

Relying on or derived from observation or experiment: empirical results that supported the hypothesis.
Verifiable or provable by means of observation or experiment: empirical laws.
Guided by practical experience and not theory, especially in medicine.

1) First to step way back, Chinese medicine is based on empiricism not on folklore and metaphysics so you are off base there. The fact that it is viewed as folklore and metaphysics is based on a very narrow view, which tends to be the standard view of many from the west.

Next

2) That aside I have been through this entire post and although I do not agree with RoninPimp on most things I have to say what he is saying is that Science, and I am making an assumption he is talking western science, has not and currently cannot prove the existence of Qi/Ki. If that is the case he is correct, Science cannot currently prove its existence.

As I have said Professors at Beijing University of Traditional Chinese medicine that teach Qi Gong say this and they are currently working to find away to scientifically test for it. They also believe it exists but they also believe many who claim they have high levels of it are not being totally truthful.

So, yes I believe Qi exists, it has been working for the Chinese for thousands of years, and yes it has not been proven to exist by science.

This does not mean that it does not exist and once again I do not think RoninPimp is trying to say it doesn't exist because science can't find it, he is just saying science can’t find it. If he were saying it does not exist because science cannot find it and that’s it, in that case then there are several things in existence today that science would have not bothered to try and prove because they could not at one time prove them. Plate tectonics comes to mind for 1 example.

There are also things that were one time excepted as scientific fact that were latter proven to be false by science itself due to advancements in science.

Hell I don’t think Science could find Hoffa and that does not prove or disprove he currently does not exist.

Now I have admitted it, let see if the other side of the bargain is upheld.

 

[RoninPimp]

I think a bit of clarification is needed on word meaning here.

Definition of empiricism

The view that experience, especially of the senses, is the only source of knowledge.
Employment of empirical methods, as in science.
An empirical conclusion.
The practice of medicine that disregards scientific theory and relies solely on practical experience.

Definition of empirical

Relying on or derived from observation or experiment: empirical results that supported the hypothesis.
Verifiable or provable by means of observation or experiment: empirical laws.
Guided by practical experience and not theory, especially in medicine.

1) First to step way back, Chinese medicine is based on empiricism not on folklore and metaphysics so you are off base there. The fact that it is viewed as folklore and metaphysics is based on a very narrow view, which tends to be the standard view of many from the west.

Next

2) That aside I have been through this entire post and although I do not agree with RoninPimp on most things I have to say what he is saying is that Science, and I am making an assumption he is talking western science, has not and currently cannot prove the existence of Qi/Ki. If that is the case he is correct, Science cannot currently prove its existence.

As I have said Professors at Beijing University of Traditional Chinese medicine that teach Qi Gong say this and they are currently working to find away to scientifically test for it. They also believe it exists but they also believe many who claim they have high levels of it are not being totally truthful.

So, yes I believe Qi exists, it has been working for the Chinese for thousands of years, and yes it has not been proven to exist by science.

This does not mean that it does not exist and once again I do not think RoninPimp is trying to say it doesn't exist because science can't find it, he is just saying science can’t find it. If he were saying it does not exist because science cannot find it and that’s it, in that case then there are several things in existence today that science would have not bothered to try and prove because they could not at one time prove them. Plate tectonics comes to mind for 1 example.

There are also things that were one time excepted as scientific fact that were latter proven to be false by science itself due to advancements in science.

Hell I don’t think Science could find Hoffa and that does not prove or disprove he currently does not exist.

Now I have admitted it, let see if the other side of the bargain is upheld.

-So until those Chinese scientists have proof, the default position is one of skepticism. And what do you mean "working for the Chinese"? They cure infection with it? Or cancer? Mend bones? That is what definition #2 is referring to. Repeatable medical results. It doesn't fit thany of those definitions.

 

[Edmund BlackAdder]

Pimp, do you understand anything about Traditional Chinese Medicine?

 

[RoninPimp]

Pimp, do you understand anything about Traditional Chinese Medicine?

-I understand the basics on a layman level.

 

[Edmund BlackAdder]

Then if there was no proven basis for the concept of chi, why would they include treatments based on it's existance?

 

[Makalakumu]

The talk of science as an entity is interesting, because what we are really talking about is a body of knowledge. Scientia means knowledge. This is an important distinction, because if we are saying that science "cannot find" or "cannot prove" or "cannot support" a concept like chi, then we are saying that it is NOT science...not knowledge.

The body of knowledge portrayed by scientific literature is comprised of repeatable, empirical evidence because that is the only way that we philosophically "know" anything. Chi may yet exist outside of this body of knowledge, but as far as any real description that defies anyone's beliefs goes, we really do not know what it is.

My suggestion that chi is far more biologically and physically complicated then the "simple" principle it is presented as bears consideration, IMHO. I think that it is an anachronistic umbrella term for a number of very real phenomenon like bioelectricity or the placebo effect (which is another umbrella term). This is just speculation of course, yet I think that it is important that people on both sides of the argument keep an open mind.

It is very possible that all of the phenomenon described by chi will eventually be described by scientific literature. The familiar concept known known as "chi" may change because of it, but in the end, both sides will be assured that something is actually occurring. Take a look at the research done on bioelectricity. I think that is a good starting point to unraveling this mystery and I think that this argument will make a lot more sense afterwards.

upnorthkyosa

 

[RoninPimp]

Then if there was no proven basis for the concept of chi, why would they include treatments based on it's existance?

-I believe traditional metaphysics and folklore. Others here disagree. No matter, that's not the issue. If the Chinese have this proof of Chi, where is this Chinese revolution in medicine based on Chi theory? The Chinese export billions of products every year to the west. Chinese culture has been exported around the world. Why wouldn't they export proof of chi? It's because it is unproven using the scientific method.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Here's 2 threads that might be of interest.
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3345
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5485

 

[Xue Sheng]

-So until those Chinese scientists have proof, the default position is one of skepticism. And what do you mean "working for the Chinese"? They cure infection with it? Or cancer? Mend bones? That is what definition #2 is referring to. Repeatable medical results. It doesn't fit thany of those definitions.

So basically you are looking for an argument, not agreement or a solution or understanding, just an argument. This is what I suspected.

"If you want me to go on arguing, you'll have to pay for another five minutes."

They cure infection with it? Yes very well actually, do some reading on it, expand your narrow view of the world

Or cancer? Occasionally as does western medicine

Mend bones? Yup regularly

That is what definition #2 is referring to. They have repeatable medical results. You are obviously grossly uneducated in TCM and have no desire to learn.

Just to assist you on your road of denial; repeatable medical results. It doesn't fit those definitions the Chinese have had repeatable results in their medicine for thousands of years

Your view is correct to you no matter how much proof you get to the contrary. You are looking to win, force your opinions on others and that is it.

And no I am not going to waste my time supplying proof to you because it would be a complete waste of my time to do so. Do some reading on your own from reliable sources, it is not my job to educate you on the subject.

China is one of the most populated countries in the world with lower incidents of cancer than the US. Western medicine has only been there for a very short time and they have had great success with TCM for thousands of years prior to Western medicine arrival. Western medicine and Western science do not the world make.

I tried to work with you, but you only wish to argue, and I will no longer waste my time discussing anything with you. Now go ahead cry for the moderators to intervene and give me another bad rep point, except this time at least admit you did it. This is the wonderful world of the web, it truly doesn’t matter at all.

"Sorry, but this is not the right room for an argument."
"You want room 12A, just along the corridor."

-I understand the basics on a layman level.

And this is a gross over statement. You do not have any understanding of TCM at all.

And even if it were true, you are still arguing the point as if you are an expert, which you are not.

And am I an expert? no,

Do I have access to someone that is? Yes. Possibly one of the top 10 authorities on the subject in this country and very highly regarded in China were it counts.

--I believe traditional metaphysics and folklore. Others here disagree. No matter, that's not the issue. If the Chinese have this proof of Chi, where is this Chinese revolution in medicine based on Chi theory? The Chinese export billions of products every year to the west. Chinese culture has been exported around the world. Why wouldn't they export proof of chi? It's because it is unproven using the scientific method..

And if you bothered reading my Previous thread, which you obviously didn’t, you would have seen I have already addressed this issue.

See ya
Thank you drive through
Have a nice day.

 

[barriecusvein]

Right, lets look at a belief in science: the wavefunction.

There is no actual physical evidence that a wavefunction really exists. there is, however, a massive amount of evidence that shows it to be an accurate way of describing the quantum properties of matter (eg quantum interfearence patterns). Based on this the majority of scientists belive in wave mechanics.

now lets look at a belief in chinese science: chi.

Again there is no (to my knowledge) actual physical evidence showing that chi exists. however, there is a massive amount of evidence showing it to be an accurate way of describing the body (eg accupuncture). So many people believe in chi.

The purpose of this is to show that while there is no diffinitive experiment (at least not yet) to prove without doubt that wavefuntions or chi exist, people can use them to achieve things. While there may not be some mystical energy that flows around our bodies, the application of the theory that says there is works. While there may not be actual waves dictating the properties of a quantum particle, the application of the theory that says there is works. So whether or not either really exists is essentially irrelevent.

So who cares if chi really exists, it helps people, whether that be medically or martially. Thats a fact, and the only fact that really matters.

 

[Makalakumu]

Right, lets look at a belief in science: the wavefunction.

There is no actual physical evidence that a wavefunction really exists. there is, however, a massive amount of evidence that shows it to be an accurate way of describing the quantum properties of matter (eg quantum interfearence patterns). Based on this the majority of scientists belive in wave mechanics.

The wavefunction is different. The set of equations that use this can predict physical phenomenon to a very high degree. To this date, there has never been an experiment that has contradicted the findings of quantum mechanics...ever. Comparing the wavefunction to chi is like comparing the space shuttle to a bi-plane.

Here is why...

now lets look at a belief in chinese science: chi.

Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. When it does, people experience positive effects. This, IMO, warrents study. I think the lack of efficacy is due to the incomplete explanation of the physical phenomenon that are actually occuring.

Again there is no (to my knowledge) actual physical evidence showing that chi exists. however, there is a massive amount of evidence showing it to be an accurate way of describing the body (eg accupuncture). So many people believe in chi.

I would agree with this. There is evidence that something is occurring. Thus far, all of these physical effects have been called chi. But lately, studies of biofeedback, bioelectricity, and the placebo effect have been providing more detailed, more repeatable, and, ultimately, more useful explanations for the very same phenomenon described by chi. As scientists study this more and more, I think that it will become increasingly apparent that this cultural construct is just an anachronistic way of describing phenomenon that are not fully understood.

I think that in the future, science will eventually validate many aspects of chinese medicine and we will see things like qigong, acupuncture, etc as regular preventative care. Of course we will also see some of the mystical stuff fall by the wayside, but just as the "jedi love taps" that some fradulent martial artists claim to do have been debunked, it will, in the end, be a positive thing overall.

 

[barriecusvein]

The wavefunction is different. The set of equations that use this can predict physical phenomenon to a very high degree. To this date, there has never been an experiment that has contradicted the findings of quantum mechanics...ever. Comparing the wavefunction to chi is like comparing the space shuttle to a bi-plane.

Admittedly the analogy could have been better, i couldnt think of anything else at the time. But i think it conveys the idea that lots of people do belive in things that there is no direct physical evidence for.

There is evidence that something is occurring. Thus far, all of these physical effects have been called chi. But lately, studies of biofeedback, bioelectricity, and the placebo effect have been providing more detailed, more repeatable, and, ultimately, more useful explanations for the very same phenomenon described by chi. As scientists study this more and more, I think that it will become increasingly apparent that this cultural construct is just an anachronistic way of describing phenomenon that are not fully understood.

this is what i was trying to get at. i dont believe in a mystical energy. I think chi and the theory around it are a way of describing how the body works, in exactly the same way as physical science is a way of describing nature. so i dont think it matters if chi exists or not, things like accupuncture do work for lots of people, for whatever reason (the placebo effect etc) so it is a useful thing to have knowledge of. as far as i know there is no better description, so we go with what we have (for now).
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