Dan ranks in the KTA era

[Daniel Sullivan]

Ok, allow me to take another shot of this sans cold medicine, because after reading what I wrote, it doesn't make sense to me either. (Not to say what I'm about to write is going to be better).

All the kwans existed prior to the building of KKW and prior to the development of taekwondo. Do we agree on this?

Kwan leaders got together to work towards developing a unified art called taekwondo. Prior to 1961 none of them called what they were learning or teaching taekwondo. Would you say this is correct?

After they banded together they formed the KTA to which they worked to developing a formalized system for dan promotions (1962). To which this was the standard used:

2nd Dan forms: Balhan Hyung Dae, Chul Ki E Dan Hyung (Chul Ki #2), Naebojin E Dan Hyung (Naebojin #2), Kima E Dan Hyung (Kima #2), Choong Moo Hyung.

3rd Dan forms: Ship Su Hyung, Pal Sae Hyung, Yon Bi Hyung, Dan Kwon Kyung, No Pae Hyung, Ge Baek Hyung, Ul Ji Hyung.

4th Dan forms: Chul Ki Sam Dan Hyung (Chul Ki #3), Naebojin Sam Dan Hyung (Naebojin #3), Kima Sam Dan Hyung (Kima #3), Ja Un Hyung, Jin Soo Hyun, Am Hak Hyung, Jin Dong Hyung, Sam Il Hyung, Jang Kwon Hyung.

5th Dan forms: Kong Sang Kun Hyung, Kwan Kong Hyung, Oh Ship Sa Hyung, Ship Sam Hyung, Ban Wol Hyung, Pal Ki Kwon Hyung.

Miguksaram, I was going to respond to you on this subject on the KKW restructure thread, but I figured that that thread had suffered enough drift. My question is unrelated, so I hope that you do not mind me quoting you to start a new thread.

I see hyung for up through fourth dan. This got me thinking on subject of dan ranks. Did any taekwondo master, prior to the Kukkiwon, hold any rank in taekwondo above fourth? If yes, were there forms and curriculum for fifth dan and higher ranks?

I appreciate your response, as well as insight from anyone else with knowledge on the subject.

Daniel

 

[miguksaram]

Miguksaram, I was going to respond to you on this subject on the KKW restructure thread, but I figured that that thread had suffered enough drift. My question is unrelated, so I hope that you do not mind me quoting you to start a new thread.

I see hyung for up through fourth dan. This got me thinking on subject of dan ranks. Did any taekwondo master, prior to the Kukkiwon, hold any rank in taekwondo above fourth? If yes, were there forms and curriculum for fifth dan and higher ranks?

I appreciate your response, as well as insight from anyone else with knowledge on the subject.

Daniel

This is an excellent question. I can not honestly tell you what their exact ranks were. I would suspect that none of them were above 4th dan level upon returning back to Korea from Japan. I know Lee, Won-kuk was a 3rd dan when he began teaching back in Korea. Now something to keep in mind is that even Funakoshi was just a 5th dan level when teaching. So I can't see many of these students being higher than 4th at most.

So the question is how did they develope their ranking system? Did they just put themselves at a certain level and then began from there?

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Were fifth dan and up karate practitioners common at that time? No offense to any who hold those ranks on this board, but they seem much more common today than they had been in years past.

If Funakoshi was a fifth dan, and these gentlemen were all roughly fourth to fifth dan, did they go on to develope a curriculum for fifth through ninth dan? Or were the ranks the byproduct of beginning new organizations?

Personally, aside from administrative reasons and perhaps a bit of ego, I frankly see very little practical value to such ranks, though I am looking from the south side of third dan, and my perspective may not be an accurate one.

Daniel

 

[dancingalone]

In the karate systems I am familiar with there is no official curriculum for ranks after approximately 3rd dan. Promotions seems to be based on tenure and service to the art/organization after that.

 

[Muwubu16858]

Both Yoon Byung In and Yoon Kwai Byeong both recieved the title of Shihan (Sa Bom) in Shudokan, which to my understanding is 4th Dan. Their names are on this list: http://www.wkf.org/shudokan.list.html
At that time, Yoon Kwai Byeong was called Yoon Uoi Byeong, for what reason, I don't know. I also know that Yoon Kwai Byeong was a student of Mabuni Kenwa, but what rank he held, I couldn't tell you.

 

[rmclain]

Miguksaram, I was going to respond to you on this subject on the KKW restructure thread, but I figured that that thread had suffered enough drift. My question is unrelated, so I hope that you do not mind me quoting you to start a new thread.

I see hyung for up through fourth dan. This got me thinking on subject of dan ranks. Did any taekwondo master, prior to the Kukkiwon, hold any rank in taekwondo above fourth? If yes, were there forms and curriculum for fifth dan and higher ranks?

I appreciate your response, as well as insight from anyone else with knowledge on the subject.

Daniel

At the 1962 rank exam, with the forms requirements listed in this thread, (now) Grandmaster Kim Soo and 1 other person (I forgot the name) tested for 5th Dan (the highest tested at this exam). This rank exam was a black belt level-only rank exam. From what I have been told about the exam from Grandmaster Kim Soo, I didn't get the impression that any kwan founders ever tested under the new association.

Especially since he was a junior from 2 of the kwan (Yoon Byung-in to Lee Nam-sok (Changmoo-kwan) to Grandmaster Kim Soo and Yoon Byung-in to Park Chul-hee/Hong Jong-pyo (Kangduk-Won) to Grandmaster Kim Soo. I never heard of Grandmaster Kim's instructors testing. Seems they helped determine the forms required at the various Dan-grade levels. You can see a few forms unique to Changmoo-kwan and Kangduk-Won listed in there: Dan Kwon, Jang Kwon, and Palgi-kwon.

R. McLain

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

At the 1962 rank exam, with the forms requirements listed in this thread, (now) Grandmaster Kim Soo and 1 other person (I forgot the name) tested for 5th Dan (the highest tested at this exam). This rank exam was a black belt level-only rank exam. From what I have been told about the exam from Grandmaster Kim Soo, I didn't get the impression that any kwan founders ever tested under the new association.

Especially since he was a junior from 2 of the kwan (Yoon Byung-in to Lee Nam-sok (Changmoo-kwan) to Grandmaster Kim Soo and Yoon Byung-in to Park Chul-hee/Hong Jong-pyo (Kangduk-Won) to Grandmaster Kim Soo. I never heard of Grandmaster Kim's instructors testing. Seems they helped determine the forms required at the various Dan-grade levels. You can see a few forms unique to Changmoo-kwan and Kangduk-Won listed in there: Dan Kwon, Jang Kwon, and Palgi-kwon.

R. McLain

Meaning no disrespect to them, it seems as if they were all legitamate third to fifth dan karateka and fourth and fifth dan taekwondoin within their kwans who, in the interest of adding prestige to a new organization, promoted themselves or were promoted by someone else to ranks of ninth or whatever dan.

As I say, not trying to ruffle feathers or disrespect these gentlemen. I understand the creation of rank within a new organization, especially given the time that they were creating the new org. If my above assessment is in any way out of line, freely correct me.

Daniel

 

[rmclain]

Meaning no disrespect to them, it seems as if they were all legitamate third to fifth dan karateka and fourth and fifth dan taekwondoin within their kwans who, in the interest of adding prestige to a new organization, promoted themselves or were promoted by someone else to ranks of ninth or whatever dan.

As I say, not trying to ruffle feathers or disrespect these gentlemen. I understand the creation of rank within a new organization, especially given the time that they were creating the new org. If my above assessment is in any way out of line, freely correct me.

Daniel

I don't understand how their association with the new association would improve what they were already doing. Maybe they were honored to be involved, or maybe there was pressure to join under this organization and TKD? I don't know for sure.

FYI: Those dan ranked forms were replaced in 1967 by forms the KTA made up that year (67).

R. McLain

 

[terryl965]

All I can remember that in the late sixty and early seventies anybody over a fifth was someone feared and respected for all the years they devoted to the Arts, since the KKW started Dan rank was given to any Tom Dick or Harry and we all know this to be true. They needed high ranks to spead the Art or so they thought.

 

[exile]

I don't understand how their association with the new association would improve what they were already doing. Maybe they were honored to be involved, or maybe there was pressure to join under this organization and TKD? I don't know for sure.

That was probably a lot of it. The Rhee regime was very gung-ho on unity under the heading of a fabricated ancient, strictly Korean MA history, and that continued into the Park regime, as I understand it.

FYI: Those dan ranked forms were replaced in 1967 by forms the KTA made up that year (67).

R. McLain

Which forms were those, RM?

 

[YoungMan]

When the KTA formed, it systemized much of what we consider Taekwondo, including the Dan ranks. The Dan ranks went up to 9, as did the number of forms, to represent the number of Kwans that made it up.
Now, it is my understanding that it was agreed that the original or very senior members of the Kwans were awarded very high Dan rank (I don't know if they were given 9th Dan) from the KTA in recognition of their years of service. I do know Mr. Uhm was awarded 9th Dan in about 1975, but he was also Chung Do Kwan head. These Dan ranks were awarded by the senior members of the KTA-all Kwang Jang or very senior black belts in terms of their relation to various kwans. Nobody awarded themselves high rank.

 

[rmclain]

That was probably a lot of it. The Rhee regime was very gung-ho on unity under the heading of a fabricated ancient, strictly Korean MA history, and that continued into the Park regime, as I understand it.



Which forms were those, RM?

Koryo, Kum-gang, Tae Baek, Pyong Won, Ship Jin, Jee Tae, Cheong Kwon, Han Soo, Il Yo.

R. McLain

 

[exile]

Koryo, Kum-gang, Tae Baek, Pyong Won, Ship Jin, Jee Tae, Cheong Kwon, Han Soo, Il Yo.

R. McLain

Much appreciated, RM.

I had thought that some of those forms were a good deal older—I guess there might be a fair amount of older material that shows up in them in new combinations, just as with the colored belt forms like the Palgwes.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Just a clarification so that the wrong impression isn't given:

In no way am I suggesting in this post or questioning whether or not the KTA era masters deserved the high ranks that they were awarded. Generally, godan was only awarded to those who had made a major contribution to the art, which each and every one of those gents did (now, I can't find a web page for a school without a ninth dan).

I am trying to discern the point at which it went from nobody being above fifth dan to having a few well deserving and highly skilled taekwondo pioneers being awarded such high ranks.

This is strictly a TKD history question.

Daniel

 

[rmclain]

Just a clarification so that the wrong impression isn't given:

In no way am I suggesting in this post or questioning whether or not the KTA era masters deserved the high ranks that they were awarded. Generally, godan was only awarded to those who had made a major contribution to the art, which each and every one of those gents did (now, I can't find a web page for a school without a ninth dan).

I am trying to discern the point at which it went from nobody being above fifth dan to having a few well deserving and highly skilled taekwondo pioneers being awarded such high ranks.

This is strictly a TKD history question.

Daniel

This is a good question that you asked. I wonder if the ranks above 5th dan in Korean MA were implemented at the same time it happened in Japan. Seems to me, the highest rank in karate into the 1940's was 5th Dan. I don't know when this changed either.

R. McLain

 

[YoungMan]

The KTA was the first time the Kwans became organized, and it became a process of figuring out where they wanted Korean martial arts to go in a way acceptable to all of them. Hence, the Dan rank system paid tribute to all Kwans (9 Kwans, 9 Dans), the Palgues were born, and you received Kwan and KTA Dan ranking.
I think anything above 5th Dan in the KTA was decided by the most senior Kwan and KTA members-guys who had been around since the beginning of all this. They didn't give themselves Dan rank, but decided this person deserves 6th, 7th, and 8th Dan.

 

[terryl965]

The KTA was the first but the KKW is what came from it, the original 9 kwans wanted unity for all, so much for that. The concept was great, the excutution was bad.

 

[Kwanjang]

The KTA was the first but the KKW is what came from it, the original 9 kwans wanted unity for all, so much for that. The concept was great, the excutution was bad.

Terry, I love reading your posts! They are Short and to the point, and very insightful. I agree with your last post whole heartedly!

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

As on the other post regarding taekwondo and its relationship to karate, I really appreciate the decorum that all of you have maintained on this thread, who's subject is likewise, potentially contentious.

My hat is off to all of you.

Daniel

 

[terryl965]

Terry, I love reading your posts! They are Short and to the point, and very insightful. I agree with your last post whole heartedly!

KJ I appreciate your voice, let me explain why I keep it short, even though I am ITF and KKW certified I belong to no-one right now. Over the last ten years I have seen so much BS that I sometime believe I work for a rancer and not in TKD. The ITF seperated and the KKW is just as bad, people talk about bringing back Kwan linage but that is only another bad ideal for TKD same people runung just with views only. I believe staying shaort and brief lets me see all views without making statements that are not true. I love TKD have for over thirty years that is why I do it it is a lifestyle not anything else. I will stay on top of everything from what is happening to new and better ways for me to train. I wish the family that was first was TKD could get back together for the betterment of our Art. I also wish that we as a whole can put everything on the back burner so we can grow out of the asshes that we have brought to our Art.