TSD/TKD Forms List

[dvcochran]

I posted this on the General thread hoping to get more hits. I have also PM several people on the forum for information so any help is appreciated. I am working on data for my next Dan advancement in a couple years. My thought is to list EVERY TSD/SBD and TKD form I can find and discuss the history behind each form. Not the how so much as the what/where/when. Here is an initial list that is very rough. Please add to the list if possible. As the list is complete I will dive in to the individual pieces.
Thank you.
Kicho Forms 1-3
Palgwae Forms 1-8
Taeguek 1-8
Pyung An Forms (Color Belt) 1-5
Original Tae Kyeon & TSD Black Belt Forms - 14
Bassai
Nahanji 1-3
Jin Do
Ro-hi
Kong Sang-Kun
Jit-te
Wan Su
Sei-Shan
Ji-On
O Ship Sa Bo
So rim Jang Kwon
Sip Soo
Tae Kuk Kwan – (Same as Kicho Hyung’s)

Kukkiwon Yudanja Forms 1-9
Koryo
Keumgang
Taebaek
Pyongwon
Sip Jin
Jitae
Cheonkwon
Hansoo
Ilyo

 

[skribs]

Thing is...you'll have some forms with similar names but different patterns. The Kibons we did at my first school weren't exactly the same as my second school. The Palgwes we do at my school are VERY different from the Palgwes I've seen on YouTube.

Then you get to school-specific forms. My first school had somewhere around 30 or so Exercises, which were basically mini-forms, in addition to the Kibons, Taegeuks, and Palgwes. The school I'm at now does the official versions of the KKW black belt forms, but also has our own versions, which are fairly similar but with a few tweaks and usually a section that's completely different.

 

[dvcochran]

Thing is...you'll have some forms with similar names but different patterns. The Kibons we did at my first school weren't exactly the same as my second school. The Palgwes we do at my school are VERY different from the Palgwes I've seen on YouTube.

Then you get to school-specific forms. My first school had somewhere around 30 or so Exercises, which were basically mini-forms, in addition to the Kibons, Taegeuks, and Palgwes. The school I'm at now does the official versions of the KKW black belt forms, but also has our own versions, which are fairly similar but with a few tweaks and usually a section that's completely different.

I will use a historically accurate version. Not versions that have been altered by fractured schools/teachers over the years. There is no way I could ever gather all that data.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I will use a historically accurate version. Not versions that have been altered by fractured schools/teachers over the years. There is no way I could ever gather all that data.

How do you plan to determine which version is "historically accurate?"

 

[dvcochran]

How do you plan to determine which version is "historically accurate?"

Yes, that is going to be tough. My thought is simply a non-weighted average from as many sources as possible. I am open to other ideas as well.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Yes, that is going to be tough. My thought is simply a non-weighted average from as many sources as possible. I am open to other ideas as well.

I don't have any good suggestions, but I don't know how well that will work. For example, I practice and teach the Palgwae forms. They also do Palgwae at @skribs' school. Which is historically correct?
Unless the forms are, like the Taegeuk forms, endorsed by a single organization, you're not likely to be able to identify which flavor is "correct."

For that matter, you're going to have trouble with "correct" for some of the TSD/SBD forms you've got listed. They are, after all, the same forms done in various shotokan/shudokan/Okinawan systems. But each organization will do them with variations.

 

[dvcochran]

I don't have any good suggestions, but I don't know how well that will work. For example, I practice and teach the Palgwae forms. They also do Palgwae at @skribs' school. Which is historically correct?
Unless the forms are, like the Taegeuk forms, endorsed by a single organization, you're not likely to be able to identify which flavor is "correct."

For that matter, you're going to have trouble with "correct" for some of the TSD/SBD forms you've got listed. They are, after all, the same forms done in various shotokan/shudokan/Okinawan systems. But each organization will do them with variations.

That is where the best average comes in. I will not be using Okinawan variations. Just too many variables to make any sense of.

 

[Dirty Dog]

That is where the best average comes in. I will not be using Okinawan variations.

The Okinawan versions are the oldest, but they're not the most historically correct?

 

[skribs]

I don't have any good suggestions, but I don't know how well that will work. For example, I practice and teach the Palgwae forms. They also do Palgwae at @skribs' school. Which is historically correct?
Unless the forms are, like the Taegeuk forms, endorsed by a single organization, you're not likely to be able to identify which flavor is "correct."

For that matter, you're going to have trouble with "correct" for some of the TSD/SBD forms you've got listed. They are, after all, the same forms done in various shotokan/shudokan/Okinawan systems. But each organization will do them with variations.

I'd be willing to put a lot of money down that mine are not the original Palgwe forms

With that said, I've seen several different versions of even Palgwe Il Jang on youtube.

• All versions I've seen are 20 steps in the same I pattern
• Most have inside blocks, some have outside blocks
• All have a back stance for the double-knife-hand block, and front stance for the punches. Most have front stance for the down blocks and knife-hand strikes, and back stance for the inside or outside blocks
• All have the kiyhaps in the same place

These little details are interesting. It's clear some schools are trying to teach "back stance is defensive stance" with every block being in a back stance. It's clear that different people read a manual differently when some decided to do inside blocks, and other outside blocks, which in a still picture can look the same. And even though my school had the same similarities as all the others, and every other school did at least some of the stuff the same way we do ours, our school has a completely unique version I wasn't able to find.

Our combination of stances and specific techniques is different than what I've seen, even if the pattern and the basic template is the same.

Now, that's Palgwe Il Jang. With Palgwe Chil Jang, our version is completely different in every way. The Palgwe Chil Jang I found online had maybe 1 or 2 moves that I was like "that looks like what we do". And it was at a different part of the form. The pattern was different, the timing and pacing was different, the length and complexity was different (ours is longer and more difficult, in my opinion).

 

[pdg]

Is the Chang-Hon pattern set covered in your list or is it not TKD?

 

[Balrog]

In the Songahm style, we have:

Colored Belts: Songahm 1 - 5, Inwha 1-2, ChungJung 1-2
Black Belts: ShimJun, JungYul, ChungSan, SokBong, ChungHae, JahngSoo, ChulJoon. That takes us to 7th Degree Black Belt. I don't know the names of the 8th or 9th Degree forms I'll find them out and update this list later.

 

[kitkatninja]

...Kicho Forms 1-3...

I do TSD... Just wanted to add that we also practice Ki Cho Sa Bu (basic form 4) and Ki Cho Oh Bu (basic form 5) - they are also known as Kee Cho Sa Bu and Kee Cho Oh Bu... TBH, I have to admit that I do not know the origins of these two forms, but have found (on Amazon) a book that does talk/show them (however not sure how indepth it goes)... There are also videos on Youtube, but again, slightly different to how we practice them.

 

[kitkatninja]

I will use a historically accurate version. Not versions that have been altered by fractured schools/teachers over the years. There is no way I could ever gather all that data.

How far back will you go? What is historical for you?

Most, if not all, the kwan founders had (some sort of) training from Funakoshi, his teacher(s), from someone who trained under him (Funakoshi), or from Funakoshi's work.

Ro Byung Jik (Song Moo Kwan) <- Gichin Funakoshi <- Anko Itosu, Anko Asato, and Matsumura Sokon
Won Kuk Lee (Chung Do Kwan) <- Gichin Funakoshi <- Anko Itosu, Anko Asato, and Matsumura Sokon
Chun Sang Sup (Jidokwan) <- Gichin Funakoshi <- Anko Itosu, Anko Asato, and Matsumura Sokon
Lee Nam Suk and Kim Soon Bae/Yoon Byung In (Chang Moo Kwan) <- Gichin Funakoshi work (for Lee Nam Suk). <- Kanken Toyama <- Itosu Anko (for Yoon Byung In)
Hwang Kee (Moo Duk Kwan) <- Won Kuk Lee (Chung Do Kwan) <- Gichin Funakoshi <- Anko Itosu, Anko Asato, and Matsumura Sokon

The forms have changed from instructor to student over the years, even Gichin Funakoshi stated that "Time changes, the world changes, and obviously the martial arts must change too. The karate the high school students practise today is not the same karate that was practised even as recently as ten years ago, and it is a long way indeed form the karate I learned when I was a child in Okinawa"

Because of that, was version will you use? Just something for you to consider

 

[Dirty Dog]

How far back will you go? What is historical for you?

Most, if not all, the kwan founders had (some sort of) training from Funakoshi, his teacher(s), from someone who trained under him (Funakoshi), or from Funakoshi's work.

Ro Byung Jik (Song Moo Kwan) <- Gichin Funakoshi <- Anko Itosu, Anko Asato, and Matsumura Sokon
Won Kuk Lee (Chung Do Kwan) <- Gichin Funakoshi <- Anko Itosu, Anko Asato, and Matsumura Sokon
Chun Sang Sup (Jidokwan) <- Gichin Funakoshi <- Anko Itosu, Anko Asato, and Matsumura Sokon
Lee Nam Suk and Kim Soon Bae/Yoon Byung In (Chang Moo Kwan) <- Gichin Funakoshi work (for Lee Nam Suk). <- Kanken Toyama <- Itosu Anko (for Yoon Byung In)
Hwang Kee (Moo Duk Kwan) <- Won Kuk Lee (Chung Do Kwan) <- Gichin Funakoshi <- Anko Itosu, Anko Asato, and Matsumura Sokon

The forms have changed from instructor to student over the years, even Gichin Funakoshi stated that "Time changes, the world changes, and obviously the martial arts must change too. The karate the high school students practise today is not the same karate that was practised even as recently as ten years ago, and it is a long way indeed form the karate I learned when I was a child in Okinawa"

Because of that, was version will you use? Just something for you to consider

Given that GM HWANG, Kee specifically denied that he ever trained under GM WON, Kuk Lee it gets even more complicated...

 

[dvcochran]

How far back will you go? What is historical for you?

Most, if not all, the kwan founders had (some sort of) training from Funakoshi, his teacher(s), from someone who trained under him (Funakoshi), or from Funakoshi's work.

Ro Byung Jik (Song Moo Kwan) <- Gichin Funakoshi <- Anko Itosu, Anko Asato, and Matsumura Sokon
Won Kuk Lee (Chung Do Kwan) <- Gichin Funakoshi <- Anko Itosu, Anko Asato, and Matsumura Sokon
Chun Sang Sup (Jidokwan) <- Gichin Funakoshi <- Anko Itosu, Anko Asato, and Matsumura Sokon
Lee Nam Suk and Kim Soon Bae/Yoon Byung In (Chang Moo Kwan) <- Gichin Funakoshi work (for Lee Nam Suk). <- Kanken Toyama <- Itosu Anko (for Yoon Byung In)
Hwang Kee (Moo Duk Kwan) <- Won Kuk Lee (Chung Do Kwan) <- Gichin Funakoshi <- Anko Itosu, Anko Asato, and Matsumura Sokon

The forms have changed from instructor to student over the years, even Gichin Funakoshi stated that "Time changes, the world changes, and obviously the martial arts must change too. The karate the high school students practise today is not the same karate that was practised even as recently as ten years ago, and it is a long way indeed form the karate I learned when I was a child in Okinawa"

Because of that, was version will you use? Just something for you to consider

Thank you, This kind of data will help. To try and answer you question, I plan to take data from as many sources as possible. I know that is a very big picture but I want to see where the data takes me. The "version" you mention is what I am trying to factor out.

 

[dvcochran]

Given that GM HWANG, Kee specifically denied that he ever trained under GM WON, Kuk Lee it gets even more complicated...

I am trying the "get all the liars in the same room" approach. Hard to talk to a dead liar though.

 

[dvcochran]

I'd be willing to put a lot of money down that mine are not the original Palgwe forms

With that said, I've seen several different versions of even Palgwe Il Jang on youtube.

• All versions I've seen are 20 steps in the same I pattern
• Most have inside blocks, some have outside blocks
• All have a back stance for the double-knife-hand block, and front stance for the punches. Most have front stance for the down blocks and knife-hand strikes, and back stance for the inside or outside blocks
• All have the kiyhaps in the same place

These little details are interesting. It's clear some schools are trying to teach "back stance is defensive stance" with every block being in a back stance. It's clear that different people read a manual differently when some decided to do inside blocks, and other outside blocks, which in a still picture can look the same. And even though my school had the same similarities as all the others, and every other school did at least some of the stuff the same way we do ours, our school has a completely unique version I wasn't able to find.

Our combination of stances and specific techniques is different than what I've seen, even if the pattern and the basic template is the same.

Now, that's Palgwe Il Jang. With Palgwe Chil Jang, our version is completely different in every way. The Palgwe Chil Jang I found online had maybe 1 or 2 moves that I was like "that looks like what we do". And it was at a different part of the form. The pattern was different, the timing and pacing was different, the length and complexity was different (ours is longer and more difficult, in my opinion).

How do you think it has happened that your school teaches a different Palgwae form?

 

[dvcochran]

The Okinawan versions are the oldest, but they're not the most historically correct?

That is a good point but if I start jumping countries I don't know how I will ever find a stopping point. For all intents and purposes I don't see going back farther than 150 years or so.

 

[kitkatninja]

Given that GM HWANG, Kee specifically denied that he ever trained under GM WON, Kuk Lee it gets even more complicated...

It's turns into the "he said she said"... It could be the wrong words, instead of trained under, possibly trained with??? Maybe??? I'm pretty sure that GM Hwang Kee is stated to have received his 6th Gup* in Chung Do Kwan according to this book. I could be wrong, if I can find it, I'll take a pic and post it here...

*gradings and levels where alot different back then...

 

[Dirty Dog]

It's turns into the "he said she said"... It could be the wrong words, instead of trained under, possibly trained with??? Maybe??? I'm pretty sure that GM Hwang Kee is stated to have received his 6th Gup* in Chung Do Kwan according to this book. I could be wrong, if I can find it, I'll take a pic and post it here...

*gradings and levels where alot different back then...

It's very much "he said she said", yes. GM WON says GM HWANG trained in the Chung Do Kwan. GM HWANG says no he didn't. While it has some historical interest to me as a student and teacher of TKD MDK, it ultimately doesn't really matter.