Cross Training

[westernwarrior]

I think cross-training can be benifical, but not for everyone. If you learn to box, what you are really learning is how to attack with your hands, use footwork, head movement etc. But some arts are more...I'd like to say philosophy-based, but that's not quite right.

I'll give an example. if I were to throw a boxer on the ground what could he do? His skills are extremly limited in this situation. This is because a boxer trains for a sport, using specific tools. If I were to throw say, a tai chi guy on the ground, he has principles of power generation and opponent control that still apply.

What I'm trying to say is that some arts have a philosophy or strategy on how to use your body to fight. Those strategies should be applicable in most any situation, so cross training isn't always necessary. But combative sports teach how to use certain tools in certain situations. So to cross train expands your ability to fight in different situations. I'm hope I got this across right.

 

[DAC..florida]

Originally posted by 7starmantis
I disagree totaly. If you never "master" an art, you have no idea how useful it can be in each different situation. How will you know what is good for certain kicks and punches, if you never master the art? Who says you need certain types of kicks and punches, and grappling skills? If you truly master your art, you need only it. As a 7 Star Mantis practicioner, you shouldn't end up on the ground in a grappling match, if you mastered your art, you wouldn't.


7sm

I hear this way too often. :asian:

You mean to tell me that you couldnt be blindly attacked from the back or caught off guard and end up on the ground?

I feel that if you are proficiant at ground fighting, grappling, close quarters, weapon defence and using distance wherever the fight should end up, you will be prepaired. Im not saying that the style Im currently taking is the best but it does cover all of your arena's.


:goop:

 

[pesilat]

As a 7 Star Mantis practicioner, you shouldn't end up on the ground in a grappling match, if you mastered your art, you wouldn't.

It's always possible to end up on the ground. A fight is completely chaotic and unpredictable. You may possibly be good enough to never get taken down by your opponent (though that's unlikely, too). But you may still have a bad day and trip. You may end up fighting on a surface that provides unsure footing (i.e.: mud, snow, ice, gravel).

Being on the ground doesn't necessarily imply a "grappling match." My personal "ground game" is mostly geared toward getting back to my feet ASAP. I never intend to roll around on the ground grappling with someone.

At the same time, I know that it may happen because of the chaotic nature of fighting.

And Mr. Murphy (the guy who wrote the law) is always ready to lend a "helping hand" in a fight. Which usually means you'll end up in the last place you want (much less intend) to be.

Mike

 

[Tigertron]

It is beneficial to study other arts. Otherwise you would tend to think that your art is "the" only way, while in reality it is just "one" of many ways. Besides, it is important to be exposed (experience) how other styles fight, so you would know how to defeat them.

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by pesilat
There's something of that there. But, for me, what I primarily get out of cross training is a deeper understanding of my primary art. By looking for the similarities, I get different perspectives on the same material. These different perspectives of the same concepts/principles help to deepen my understanding of those concepts/principles which then translates to a deeper understanding of my primary art.

Where they don't overlap, my overall knowledge is broadened.

Also, as an instructor, I'm watching how people teach. How do they communicate the concepts/principles. So I get that from cross training, too (and, of course, from watching instructors in my own art as well).

Mike

Thats pretty much what I've experienced. When I started BJJ, I had some experience with Judo/Jujutsu and I was jazzed about learning the ground work.

After a considerable amount of time I became functionally sound with my ground work but what I realized was that BJJ just like all arts has many weaknesses too.

So I fixed a weak area for myself and I exposed myself to the "holes" in ground grappling. I love ground grappling but first I'm a stand up fighter. And after I realized that I was "stand up first" I started "seeing" things that everybody else on the mat were overlooking.

Even if I was a ground fighter first, I know I would benefit from learning how a stand up fighter "thinks" and in general fights.

 

[A.R.K.]

I disagree totaly. If you never "master" an art, you have no idea how useful it can be in each different situation. How will you know what is good for certain kicks and punches, if you never master the art? Who says you need certain types of kicks and punches, and grappling skills? If you truly master your art, you need only it. As a 7 Star Mantis practicioner, you shouldn't end up on the ground in a grappling match, if you mastered your art, you wouldn't.

Well I would have to ask you what you mean by 'mastering' your art? If by obtaining high Dan rank and a title I would respectfully have to disagree with you. A BB or high Dan rank are really pretty meaningless. Titles even more so. I know individuals with high Dan rank who are excellent in form and technique..yet have never actually been in a real physical altercation. With respect I would have to question anyone's practical competency if they have never been forced to use it in a stress filled life and death situation outside the dojo. Regardless of their 'rank' or title.

On the other hand a low rank novice who has actually used the little he/she knows successfully defend themselves or loved ones might actually fit the 'title' of mastering the art much better.

I feel it is folly to assume you know enough never to be taken to the ground. Likewise it is folly to assume you can take everyone to the ground. Unless it's a practiced routine you never know whats going to happen.

Train for the worst and hope for the best.

:asian:

 

[Zujitsuka]

Originally posted by Mya Ryu Jitsu
Well I would have to ask you what you mean by 'mastering' your art? If by obtaining high Dan rank and a title I would respectfully have to disagree with you. A BB or high Dan rank are really pretty meaningless. Titles even more so. I know individuals with high Dan rank who are excellent in form and technique..yet have never actually been in a real physical altercation. With respect I would have to question anyone's practical competency if they have never been forced to use it in a stress filled life and death situation outside the dojo. Regardless of their 'rank' or title.

On the other hand a low rank novice who has actually used the little he/she knows successfully defend themselves or loved ones might actually fit the 'title' of mastering the art much better.

I feel it is folly to assume you know enough never to be taken to the ground. Likewise it is folly to assume you can take everyone to the ground. Unless it's a practiced routine you never know whats going to happen.

Train for the worst and hope for the best.

:asian:

No better gospel has been spoken.

 

[lucifersdad]

personally, i think mma and cross training is excellant!

never mind the benefits of learning new skills, u can also find flaws in how you deliver a technique or in your movement when you spar etc. etc.
even on the basics side, i found training in a "similar" style benefited my training.
when i was training for my second dan in karate i took up ITF taekwondo as well, and i found my karate basics improve quite alot. maybe it all depends on who you train with and in what style, sometimes all you need is a differant perspective on things you all ready do,
but im probably wrong!
again!

 

[K' Evans]

I had posted up the question of cross-training before, and though I received some answers which were helpful, I also eventually found the answer myself.

The article by IMPACT Academy (which is great) sort of sums up my thoughts. As a beginner, and I think even for a considerable amount of time in 'mastering' the art, cross-training shouldn't be heavily endorsed. It's not that cross-training is bad, but it has to be tackled in a sensible and intelligent manner. If you cross-train in too many arts at a time when you don't have a proper foundation in one primary art, it will then have a lot of drawbacks: 1) you are just being a 'technique collector', hence not absorbing what you are learning, 2) you will be on an endless cycle collecting dozens upon dozens of techniques with no understanding or minimal training of the proper principles, 3) your training time will be disorganized and affected by trying to learn so much.

One exception is if the two arts are categorically different: like Karate (striking) with Judo (grappling). Nevertheless, I think an individual can still get mixed up with stance positions and movements, so it is important for the individual to truly understand and discriminate the differences so that s/he can effectively learn both arts at the same time. Of course, some arts also compliment others, so it's also good to find a good match if cross-training. I also think some individuals are exceptionally gifted to learn multiple arts at a time, and I certainly respect their intelligence and stamina.

I like what was said abt not worrying to become a "belt-collector", but have to admit, that having a belt is one of the more apparent ways to "prove" your proficiency in said art. Nevertheless, I think practitioners can practice cross-training in a healthy way as long as they are trying to understand their strengths and weaknesses better and not for the narcisstic goal of trying to become a multi-art master as fast as possible. The former approach takes time, patience, reflection and diligence.

 

[kidswarrior]

It's not that cross-training is bad, but it has to be tackled in a sensible and intelligent manner. If you cross-train in too many arts at a time when you don't have a proper foundation in one primary art, it will then have a lot of drawbacks: 1) you are just being a 'technique collector', hence not absorbing what you are learning, 2) you will be on an endless cycle collecting dozens upon dozens of techniques with no understanding or minimal training of the proper principles, 3) your training time will be disorganized and affected by trying to learn so much.

For me, this has to be determined by the overall strategies of each art. Are the basic 10-12 overarching beliefs and goals of the arts compatible, even if complementary? For example, I cross trained in Kempo and Kung Fu San Soo. Both are--the way I learned them--striking arts (compatible). However, one believes in a flurry or combination of punches, while the other believes any strike, crank, or throw--even the first one (often in 3-strike combos) should probably immobilize an opponent (complementary). One puts a high priority on self-defense, while the other believes in striking first (complementary). I was able to reconcile the two, but maybe because I didn't start the second until I had several years in the first--not mastery, but a good start (don't know I'll ever feel I have 'mastery' in either).

One exception is if the two arts are categorically different: like Karate (striking) with Judo (grappling).

A good reason for studying two arts, but the following admonition is also well said:

Nevertheless, I think an individual can still get mixed up with stance positions and movements, so it is important for the individual to truly understand and discriminate the differences so that s/he can effectively learn both arts at the same time. Of course, some arts also compliment others, so it's also good to find a good match if cross-training.

The (right) approach takes time, patience, reflection and diligence.

I stumbled into cross training; did not go looking for it. But it served me very well. Sometimes waiting for those 'accidents' in life is actually not the detour, but the true path. In that case, especially, I think cross training can be a very good thing.

 

[TraditionalTKD]

I think cross training has benefits, if it is approached correctly. There is nothing worse in martial arts than a student who feels the need to study 3-4 arts simultaneously. From white belt to black, you need to be grounded in one art. Not to say other styles don't have benefits, but in the beginning, your body and mind need one road to go down. It's hard enough learning the basics and intricate dynamics of one style, much less three or four. Plus, your Instructor needs to know you are a loyal and dependable student if he is really going to teach you.
After black belt, when you have a better knowlege of basics, it is natural to experiment and pick up techniques from ther styles. Especially if you are in an environment where other styles are available (college perhaps), it can be interesting to pick up things from other styles, compare them to what you do, and perhaps add them to your repertoir. You are still a student of X art however.
If you are interested in earning rank in another style, I strongly feel it is best to wait until you have earned high enough rank (at least 4th Dan, depending on the art) before you take up another art officially.
Aside from having mastered the basics of your chosen art, your Instructor needs to know that you are loyal enough to stick with him for and not go studying another art the first chance you get. In fact, one of the principles of traditional Tae Kwon Do is loyalty. If I can't count on you as a loyal student, why should I teach you?

 

[jim777]

Holy thread resurection Batman! :lol: Sorry, couldn't help it

 

[Ceicei]

I study American Kenpo and cross train with Danzan Ryu Jujitsu. Kenpo is my foundation art. These two styles meld together very well. However, I will admit that sometimes there are training challenges that do occur when I am used to doing things one way with one style and have to do the same move in a different way with the other style.

- Ceicei

 

[Darth F.Takeda]

There is no solid YES or NO on this, it depends on the individual, the art's in question and other factors, like training times and availability of training resources.

I feel you need a core art and you can expand from there.

I do feel that art hopping is a bad idea, you know the guy who spends a couple of months doing this and a coule of months doing that. They get alot of exposure and intelectual knowledge of different arts, but tend to be lacking in actually putting it al together.

I do feel that, if time permits you can study 1-3 arts, at the same time. When you are in High School and College, you dont go to just one class, you go to several. Lot's of people used to Box and Wrestle and Fence in Military Acadamies and it would develope their skills in multiple ranges, way before MMA and Bruce Lee. Many Asian artist studied multiple arts as well.

 

[MingTheMerciless]

Cross training is good to a certain degree .I personally train in Jun Fan Jeet Kune Do ( stand up striking) , Greco Roman ( Takedown and stand up grappling ) and BJJ ( Submission , choke and lock ) . But then if cross training is tiresome and stressful for you , I suggest that it would be better to cross train some other time . I thinkinf f picking up San shou someother time as I am having problem transition from striking to clinch and ground as my three system listed above trained seperately