Weightlifting for martial arts

[Transk53]

This weight lifting topic pops up on another forum Ive been a member of for the past couple of years, and it never fails to carry mixed opnions. On a personal note I would like to offer my own personal experience. Without strength training I would feel lostt in the world, it dosnt just make me physically healthier but it keeps me mentally healthier as well.

Intriguing! You associate both as many do. What is the key thing for you?. You're philosophy as how you would put it.

 

[Flatfish]

Calisthenics is something that I should really delve into. I don't have a clue what it is. That is a strange situation to me

On the chance that you were not being sarcastic: calishenics=bodyweight training.

If you're doing pushups you are already doing calisthenics. The more important part here is "progressive", that means you are not just adding reps after reps after reps of a certain exercise because after a certain point you are not strength training anymore, you are training for endurance. The progressive part comes in by making the exercises progressively harder, e.g. instead of regular pushups, decline pushups, or diamond pushups, or uneven pushups, up to one armed pushups etc.

Two good resources:
1. Convict Conditioning by Paul Wade: incredibly juvenile with the convict mystique but there are good progressions in the book. I am roughly following the program.

2. Google Al Kavadlo: books, you tube vids, blogs etc. amazing stuff the dood can do


There are plenty of others that are supposedly better (Ross Emanait etc) but I do not have first hand experience with them yet.


I would start with looking through Kavadlo's stuff since a lot of it is free.

Also, if you really want to be envious google "Hannibal for King" and "Barstarrz"


Happy hurting!

 

[Dr.Smith]

Intriguing! You associate both as many do. What is the key thing for you?. You're philosophy as how you would put it.

Well my approach is different than most people. I dont use a traditional gym, I conduct all my workouts at home wth the exception of a martial arts class once a week.
I dont power lift, although I do use weights I dont use a bench of any kind. I use a circuit of activites to create my workout.
1.strength training-weights or body weight exorcize.
2.cardio exorcize-shadow boxing,jumping jacks etc etc.
3.core exorcize
4.shadow boxing. usually two min rounds or eight straight min.

Thats a basic Idea of what I do five days a weeek.

 

[Transk53]

Well my approach is different than most people. I dont use a traditional gym, I conduct all my workouts at home wth the exception of a martial arts class once a week.
I dont power lift, although I do use weights I dont use a bench of any kind. I use a circuit of activites to create my workout.
1.strength training-weights or body weight exorcize.
2.cardio exorcize-shadow boxing,jumping jacks etc etc.
3.core exorcize
4.shadow boxing. usually two min rounds or eight straight min.

Thats a basic Idea of what I do five days a weeek.

Sounds pretty good. An entire work out at home unfortunately I don't have the space. Have to gym it.

 

[kuniggety]

I do BJJ and, while the point is to learn to relax while you roll, I consistently have people comment on how strong I am. It is a distinct advantage. Martial arts, in particular grappling, helps you build core strength. You can supplement that by doing functional strength training. You don't need to eat 5000 calories and put up lots of weight on a bench to get strong; that will just get you big. Calisthenics, body weight exercises, and a bit of resistance training will do a lot for your health and your game. I plain feel better when I've been exercising and watching what I eat.

 

[Transk53]

I do BJJ and, while the point is to learn to relax while you roll, I consistently have people comment on how strong I am. It is a distinct advantage. Martial arts, in particular grappling, helps you build core strength. You can supplement that by doing functional strength training. You don't need to eat 5000 calories and put up lots of weight on a bench to get strong; that will just get you big. Calisthenics, body weight exercises, and a bit of resistance training will do a lot for your health and your game. I plain feel better when I've been exercising and watching what I eat.

Yeah cool. One of guys repeatedly says thing very similar. One thing he says, is that there is "gym strength" and "core strength" through different methods. I think the idea he has, is that may train to become muscular by bulk, but that not necessarily mean that person would have the strength range over someone who just works the muscles they have. IE, someone with good conditioning it that respect.

 

[Flatfish]

Goes together with the fact that there are so many ways to work muscles in different ways and they will lead to strength in different ways. I think that does not necessarily mean conditioning though but it is a different type of stress. As an example I take the conditioning class I took yesterday. The only two exercises I can remember to stress your back were pullups and crabwalks. My back is killing me today but I train pullups regularly so I am pretty sure it's not from those, so it must be the crabwalks or another exercise that I would not necessarily automatically associate with back training. I am sure if I tried BJJ for the first time tomorrow i would be hurting in places I didn't even know existed.......a lot of strength is exercise and stress specific.

 

[Dr.Smith]

I started this new thing abiut a year and a half ago, basically if you cant lift it you cant use it. I dont have a squat rack so I have to power clean everthing I squat with, its actually rorking out for me.
Also I discovered I love the power clean, even if its just for reps of ten or fifteen. Anybody else a fan of this method or exorcize?

 

[Deleted member 32980]

I thought you guys would enjoy my find...

 

[mcmoon]

Goes together with the fact that there are so many ways to work muscles in different ways and they will lead to strength in different ways. I think that does not necessarily mean conditioning though but it is a different type of stress. As an example I take the conditioning class I took yesterday. The only two exercises I can remember to stress your back were pullups and crabwalks. My back is killing me today but I train pullups regularly so I am pretty sure it's not from those, so it must be the crabwalks or another exercise that I would not necessarily automatically associate with back training. I am sure if I tried BJJ for the first time tomorrow i would be hurting in places I didn't even know existed.......a lot of strength is exercise and stress specific.

Your confusing DOMS with strength. I work out consistently with heavy weights and I do not get that sore but I could go buy a shake weight, use it for a day and would probably be extremely sore the next day because I have never used it and would probably do absolutely nothing for me other than burn a few calories. Just because something makes you sore doesn't mean it is useful, beneficial, optimal or good. Most gym classes just throw a bunch crap at you without any real method and you wake up the next day and say "hey I'm sore so it must have been a good workout".

Being stronger will always be a benefit. The best way to get strong is going to mostly rely on the heavy compound lifts(squat, bench, deadlift, OHP). Now don't confuse someone being technically better than you as being stronger. Ex. A bjj blackbelt sweeps and manhandles a powerlifter. The blackbelt notices certain queues and when and how to apply leverage in that context but are not physically stronger in probably anyway even though it might feel like they are stronger. Now take that those 2 same people starting at the same time from white belt all the way to blackbelt then the powerlifter will have a huge advantage.

 

[Flatfish]

Your confusing DOMS with strength. I work out consistently with heavy weights and I do not get that sore but I could go buy a shake weight, use it for a day and would probably be extremely sore the next day because I have never used it and would probably do absolutely nothing for me other than burn a few calories. Just because something makes you sore doesn't mean it is useful, beneficial, optimal or good. Most gym classes just throw a bunch crap at you without any real method and you wake up the next day and say "hey I'm sore so it must have been a good workout".

Yeah, my example stank, but I do know the difference between DOMS and strength . I got DOMS because I was working muscles differently than I usually do.

Being stronger will always be a benefit. The best way to get strong is going to mostly rely on the heavy compound lifts(squat, bench, deadlift, OHP). Now don't confuse someone being technically better than you as being stronger. Ex. A bjj blackbelt sweeps and manhandles a powerlifter. The blackbelt notices certain queues and when and how to apply leverage in that context but are not physically stronger in probably anyway even though it might feel like they are stronger. Now take that those 2 same people starting at the same time from white belt all the way to blackbelt then the powerlifter will have a huge advantage.

Yes, it will be a benefit. Is lifting heavy the best way for everyone? I don't necessarily think so. Is it effective? Yes of course.
The posts I was responding to dealt with, how they phrased it, "gym strength" vs "core strength" through different methods and that they do not necessarily have to be same but I clearly buggered that up.

What I was trying to get at, is that the way you train is going to give you strength in different scenarios/applications and I don't think that it is necessarily just technique related. For example take a noob guy who trains his back with deadlifts and rows versus another noob guy who trains bridging. Put both of them in a Kesa gatame and see which one has a harder time getting out. I would venture the weight lifting guy. Pick another scenario and the weightlifter would do better because the way he has trained will be more applicable to that situation.

And I completely agree that if two people start training at the same time the one who is stronger will have the advantage in the long run. But I do not agree with heavy lifting being the end-all-be-all.

And then of course I could be wrong about all of that

 

[mcmoon]

Yeah, my example stank, but I do know the difference between DOMS and strength . I got DOMS because I was working muscles differently than I usually do.




Yes, it will be a benefit. Is lifting heavy the best way for everyone? I don't necessarily think so. Is it effective? Yes of course.
The posts I was responding to dealt with, how they phrased it, "gym strength" vs "core strength" through different methods and that they do not necessarily have to be same but I clearly buggered that up.

What I was trying to get at, is that the way you train is going to give you strength in different scenarios/applications and I don't think that it is necessarily just technique related. For example take a noob guy who trains his back with deadlifts and rows versus another noob guy who trains bridging. Put both of them in a Kesa gatame and see which one has a harder time getting out. I would venture the weight lifting guy. Pick another scenario and the weightlifter would do better because the way he has trained will be more applicable to that situation.

And I completely agree that if two people start training at the same time the one who is stronger will have the advantage in the long run. But I do not agree with heavy lifting being the end-all-be-all.

And then of course I could be wrong about all of that

Thanks for clarifying but would have to disagree on your example. The lifter would most likely be able to bridge more weight even if he doesn't directly train the bridge. In the deadlift you have to bring your hips through and while not quite to the extent is a similar motion to the bridge but more importantly if they were to put kesa gatame on each other the lifter would be able to hold the noob down far more easily. The bridge is mostly hips and core and you aren't going to find a powerlifter that doesn't have extremely strong hips and core since they are very important in the squat and deadlift.

 

[Flatfish]

Thanks for clarifying but would have to disagree on your example. The lifter would most likely be able to bridge more weight even if he doesn't directly train the bridge. In the deadlift you have to bring your hips through and while not quite to the extent is a similar motion to the bridge but more importantly if they were to put kesa gatame on each other the lifter would be able to hold the noob down far more easily. The bridge is mostly hips and core and you aren't going to find a powerlifter that doesn't have extremely strong hips and core since they are very important in the squat and deadlift.

I guess we would have to do the experiment.....

I also wasn't necessarily thinking about a guy with a 500lb deadlift either.

I got up to a 260 lb squat (x5, never tried 1RM) and a 300 lb deadlift (same) when lifting (which is laughable in terms of strict numbers but I have never been a strong person) and I still find bridging quite difficult.....

But no need to argue, I get your point.

 

[mcmoon]

I guess we would have to do the experiment.....

I also wasn't necessarily thinking about a guy with a 500lb deadlift either.

I got up to a 260 lb squat (x5, never tried 1RM) and a 300 lb deadlift (same) when lifting (which is laughable in terms of strict numbers but I have never been a strong person) and I still find bridging quite difficult.....

But no need to argue, I get your point.

I was just trying to have have a good debate. I think the issue with most people is they don't want to put in the time or have the patience to get stronger. I don't mean having to go to the gym every day but be consistent. Growing up I was never a strong individual. In college I started working out some but kind of did what I seen what everyone else was doing. After college I done some research, learned loads and have stuck to the same program for almost 3 years now. I started out with around 200 bench, 240 squat, and probably around 260 deadlift(all these and following numbers are 1 rep maxes). My numbers now are roughly 260-270 bench, 365 squat and just yesterday hit a 445 deadlift. My bodyweight at the moment is between 175-179 most days. Getting stronger is a marathon not a sprint and takes time.

 

[Flatfish]

Jealous!!!!
I think I mentioned it earlier in the thread but I started to get really worried about injury and recovery with the heavy weights. Didn't feel comfortable to me anymore, which also has to do with the fact that my bones are getting old. Plus I despise racking weights . I still squat but not as heavy and not pushing myself quite so hard. Mostly progressive calisthenics now which is definitely a journey as well.

 

[Kwan Jang]

Jealous!!!!
I think I mentioned it earlier in the thread but I started to get really worried about injury and recovery with the heavy weights. Didn't feel comfortable to me anymore, which also has to do with the fact that my bones are getting old. Plus I despise racking weights . I still squat but not as heavy and not pushing myself quite so hard. Mostly progressive calisthenics now which is definitely a journey as well.

Jealous!!!!
I think I mentioned it earlier in the thread but I started to get really worried about injury and recovery with the heavy weights. Didn't feel comfortable to me anymore, which also has to do with the fact that my bones are getting old. Plus I despise racking weights . I still squat but not as heavy and not pushing myself quite so hard. Mostly progressive calisthenics now which is definitely a journey as well.

 

[Kwan Jang]

I hope no one minds me butting in on this thread. I admit I really am a genetic freak, I was lifting more when I first started lifting than most do after years of training. I have done squats with 865 lbs for a triple 4 years ago and even did 10 reps with 700 just a three months ago at the age of 50. I have also done 545 for 4 reps in the bench. These are all "raw lifts" with no suits.

I fully believe that drug free bodybuilding along with cardio (which really is and should be part of BB) is by far THE best form of cross training a martial artist/fighter can do. I am talking about using various rep patterns on the major muscle groups using basic compound movements. Not the improper version of BB that people who use other training accuse BB of doing.

My experience has been the stronger I became, the better a fighter I was. It has greatly enhanced my athletic ability. I should mention that I do stretch and do cardio (though once again, this should be a part of natural BB anyhow), but the weight training/BB I do has only enhanced my speed, strength and agility

Anybody lift weights as a form of cross training for martial arts? I've heard some criticism from martial artists against weightlifting, that it can make you too big and too musclebound which can sometimes be detrimental in that it can slow you down and hamper your movement.

 

[Kwan Jang]

I hope no one minds me butting in on this thread. I admit I really am a genetic freak, I was lifting more when I first started lifting than most do after years of training. I have done squats with 865 lbs for a triple 4 years ago and even did 10 reps with 700 just a three months ago at the age of 50. I have also done 545 for 4 reps in the bench. These are all "raw lifts" with no suits.

I fully believe that drug free bodybuilding along with cardio (which really is and should be part of BB) is by far THE best form of cross training a martial artist/fighter can do. I am talking about using various rep patterns on the major muscle groups using basic compound movements. Not the improper version of BB that people who use other training accuse BB of doing.

My experience has been the stronger I became, the better a fighter I was. It has greatly enhanced my athletic ability. I should mention that I do stretch and do cardio (though once again, this should be a part of natural BB anyhow), but the weight training/BB I do has only enhanced my speed, strength and agility

I think ideas like "gym strength" and "core strength" or the currently popular notion of "functional strength" are ridiculous. It goes by the false notion that the strength developed by weight training is not functional. I have had a bit of success in Jiu-Jitsu myself, taking the silver in Black Belt Gi and gold in No-Gi at a JJ World Championship (at least for the old guys) and I can say that my strength and athletic ability has been a great advantage when combined with my skill and technique.

 

[geezer]

I think ideas like "gym strength" and "core strength" or the currently popular notion of "functional strength" are ridiculous.

I'd have to disagree. I've known many individuals with powerful looking bodies who lacked functional strength for specific tasks. But I would absolutely agree that a well designed weight training program is a great way to enhance functional strength. Work and health issues got me out of my program, and I really need to get back on track. So I'll just shut up now...

By the way, I'm a genetic freak too. -- But not in a good way.

 

[PhotonGuy]

I hope no one minds me butting in on this thread. I admit I really am a genetic freak, I was lifting more when I first started lifting than most do after years of training. I have done squats with 865 lbs for a triple 4 years ago and even did 10 reps with 700 just a three months ago at the age of 50. I have also done 545 for 4 reps in the bench. These are all "raw lifts" with no suits.

So just how big are you? To be able to lift weight like that you must be huge.