Cross Training

[7starmantis]

Do you believe cross training in differnet arts is beneficial or detrimental to your art or skill?
I think its detrimental in that you do not get a chance to really "master" each art.

7sm

 

[hand2handCombat]

on the contrary, i believe u can master each art well. but not as fast as you would if u didnt cross-train. its very good to cross-train because you would be prepared for different situations. but cross training doesnt mean learn everyone u can, just the ones u need.

for example, for stand up arts youll need something like Muay Thai for kicks, Western Boxing for punches, Modern Arnis for knives, Kenpo for stick, Jiu-Jitsu for throw downs then wehn the opponent is on the floor u need some BJJ

 

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by hand2handCombat

on the contrary, i believe u can master each art well. but not as fast as you would if u didnt cross-train. its very good to cross-train because you would be prepared for different situations. but cross training doesnt mean learn everyone u can, just the ones u need.

for example, for stand up arts youll need something like Muay Thai for kicks, Western Boxing for punches, Modern Arnis for knives, Kenpo for stick, Jiu-Jitsu for throw downs then wehn the opponent is on the floor u need some BJJ

Wow, I would have to say that recipe list of arts would be hard to accomplish. What would you consider enough time to "master" one of those arts before going to the next one ?

7sm

 

[hand2handCombat]

i would say how much TIME would be efficient but how much training and effort you put in it. also, u have to be careful about instructors and mcdojos.

you wouldnt need to master an art, just be good at it. your instructor should be the one to decide

 

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by hand2handCombat

you wouldnt need to master an art, just be good at it. your instructor should be the one to decide

I disagree totaly. If you never "master" an art, you have no idea how useful it can be in each different situation. How will you know what is good for certain kicks and punches, if you never master the art? Who says you need certain types of kicks and punches, and grappling skills? If you truly master your art, you need only it. As a 7 Star Mantis practicioner, you shouldn't end up on the ground in a grappling match, if you mastered your art, you wouldn't.


7sm

 

[hand2handCombat]

u bring up a good point. but u still need to stick to crosstraining becasue anything could happen

 

[7starmantis]

I see how people want the advantage of crosstraining, but if it is so effective, why didn't any of the old masters and grandmasters crosstrain? They are extremely effective, and never cross trained a bit.


7sm

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by 7starmantis

I see how people want the advantage of crosstraining, but if it is so effective, why didn't any of the old masters and grandmasters crosstrain? They are extremely effective, and never cross trained a bit.

I don't believe it! At the least they sampled other arts before settling on one which gave them new ideas to bring into their own arts. The challenges did the same--it was just less formal training.

I have mixed feelings. Crosstraining Shotokan and Hsing-I is a bad idea unless you've mastered one first; but adding BJJ to either wouldn't hurt. It depends on the arts. It depends on how the arts are trying to make you move.

Karate destroyed my ability to hit a baseball--I swung a bat like a bo. Arnis has helped as the swing is more like that in baseball!

 

[7starmantis]

Hmm, good point, but unless we are developing our own style, then the cross training of the masters and grandmasters doesn't come into play. Maybe Its just in CMA that its not good to cross train. I don't see how learning the flowing arts of certain Kung FU styles would help with a hard style of Karate. You build your instincts with practice, if you practice conflicting styles it can mess up your instincts, don't you think?


JMHO,

7sm

 

[arnisador]

Yes--if you practice conflicting styles, like northern kung fu and Japanese karate, you mightn't develop the style of movement either art tries to give you. Your body will be confused! But how about northern kung fu and aikido? Japanese karate and TKD? Judo and Muay Thai? I see less conflict in these cases. In fact, BJJ and Muay Thai seems rather effective. It depends on the styles!

 

[Zujitsuka]

Good day folks. I feel that one should cross-train. One should have a primary martial art, but surely one martial art doesn't have all the answers - like hand2handcombat said. We also have to be careful what we spend our time mastering because it could be the wrong thing.

In regards to a grandmaster not cross-training, well if they don't, perhaps it is an ego thing or perhaps they've never been in a fight. A lot of commercial schools don't want their students cross-training because they want all of your money.

Most grandmasters that I've read about have in fact cross-trained (i.e. Morihei Ueshiba, founder of Aikido; Jigoro Kano, founder of Judo; Bruce Lee, founder of Jeet Kune Do). Also, modern systems are hybrids too like San Shou (developed by the People's Republic of China's Army), and Krav Maga (developed by the Israeli Army).

The founder of my primary martial art is officially recognized by the World Sokeship Council as a grandmaster/head of system. He holds degrees in Nisei Goju Karate, Tae Kwon Do, Sanuces Jujutsu, and Judo. He also was instructed in Recon Marine hand-to-hand combatives while he was part of an elite Marine Corp unit. He encourages all of his students to cross-train and in his words...."Use whatever works."

As he demonstrates to us, REAL grandmasters never stop being students. He is regularly meeting and cross-training with other prominent masters.

Respectfully,

Tyrone Turner
"Zujitsuka"
Queens, NY
________________________
http://www.tyroneturner.com

 

[7starmantis]

Hmmm.....

You bring up a very good point. Northern Kung Fu and Aikido do have alot of similarities. I just think it is too hard to master just one technique in Kung Fu, without trying to master another one from a differnet art, at the same time. Kung Fu is admitantly very different from most, so maybe thats my problem.....


You have made me think though.... I'm going to have to do some practicing now, to test it!

 

[hand2handCombat]

I see how people want the advantage of crosstraining, but if it is so effective, why didn't any of the old masters and grandmasters crosstrain? They are extremely effective, and never cross trained a bit.

maybe the different arts werent introduced to them yet?im not sure.

 

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by hand2handCombat



maybe the different arts werent introduced to them yet?im not sure.

They had several arts to cross train in but trained religiously in their own art. I think my problem is that there is so much more to Kung Fu than fighting thats why I feel its detrimental to cross train.


7sm

 

[7starmantis]

I'm a green belt now!! WOO HOOO

 

[theneuhauser]

7*mantis,

you probably have a hard time with the idea of cross training because most cma's have such huge curriculums, and in a way many do cross train (taiji, pakua, hsing-i, chin na, weapons, etc.).
i can defenitely understand that.
but noone has addressed the fact that unless you want to travel the earth fighting everyone to test your skills, it really doesnt matter if you are a little deficient in kicks, or in grappling or your boxing method.

you cross train to fulfill a need to learn more or gain a new perspective.

 

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by theneuhauser

7*mantis,

you probably have a hard time with the idea of cross training because most cma's have such huge curriculums, and in a way many do cross train (taiji, pakua, hsing-i, chin na, weapons, etc.).
i can defenitely understand that.

Very true, that is probably my problem with cross training. Most CMA do not encourage cross training either, so that is probably where most of it came from. Seeing how I've only studied CMA.


7sm

 

[arnisador]

I absolutely agree, and I don't generally recommend cross-training in a remotely simialr system to people in kung fu or karate. A very different one like judo, maybe.

If your system has a few different animals in it, some chin na, some shuai chou, a little tai chi--you may already be cross-training. But you need to master a certain style of using them all together, witha certain strategy (like plucking that was discussed on the CMA-General board, or pangainoon's big circular blocks to get to the outside, or eagle claw's intent to drive in with an eagle claw lock).

 

[jkn75]

This is an interesting topic.

I study Kuk Sool (Korean) and do not cross train. I think that some martial arts lend themselves to cross training. I agree with the Tae Kwon do/Karate+Judo options especially. They focus on select things to the point of proficiency but do seem to neglect others (e.g. TKD neglects grappling).

But certain martial arts focus on so many things that its hard to become proficient with everything without the complications of another art causing confusion. These arts are more jack-of-all- trades arts. They do not master a certain area but they neglect fewer others. Would it benefit me to train in TKD and Judo in my Kuk sool practice? Yes. Do I have the time/money/opportunity? Not always.

As far as Grandmasters go, my opinion is that early martial systems developed simply- they found things that worked and practiced and practiced. Grandmasters became that way because they were the best at those techniques, survived battles and challenges the longest, and were able to transfer that knowledge effectively. They obviously had some skill above and beyond.

In the modern period of martial arts (1950-present), newer martial art systems benefit in that anyone can create a system today. Granted just because you can do this doesn't mean you do, but most newer systems are developed because of the newer Grandmaster's dissatisfaction with existing systems. For example Dr He Young Kimm has a background in Kuk Sool, Hapkido etc but created Han Mu Do.

It helps martial arts to grow and evolve. These people obviously have crosstrained and to our benefit have eliminated some of the work for us. By combining things out of their backgrounds they try to develop more well rounded systems that they think will work better than the previous one and share that with students who find what they are teaching more interesting than the other options available.
:asian:

 

[artful dodger]

There's only so many hours in a day you can train in. I say use them all to become really proficient in your art. All that matters is that you know your stuff better than your opponent knows theirs. And there's something to be said for focussing on one style because you get more opportunity to learn the art as a whole and discover answers within that art that you wouldn't otherwise no exist. Every minute spent crosstraining is a minute less to perfect the techniques that in the end you will probably resort to using anyway. I have tried to crosstrain before, but I know when it comes the crunch you have your own style and you always end up falling back on a few favourite techniques that you can do WELL.