Regarding Tricking

[skribs]

Pushups, burpies, squats, etc. aren’t exactly time-effective ways to learn how to fight either, but anyone with any common sense at all knows the value in doing them.

Those jumping spinning flying kicks definitely have their place - demonstrations and agility training. Just because one shouldn’t really use them in a SD situation doesn’t make them worthless. I wouldn’t attempt a burpee in a fight either

I'm going to figure out a way to make aa burpee a practical fighting technique. And no, not the way @now disabled suggested.

 

[now disabled]

I'm going to figure out a way to make aa burpee a practical fighting technique. And no, not the way @now disabled suggested.

well you could fart as you do burpee ... heard that alot esp if done after a good night out on the black gold and curry lol

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Come on. The lines between self defence and performance art are blurred in many traditional styles. Xma just embraces it, which ironically might make it more effective for self defence.

I laughed in my chair at the bluntness of this.

 

[skribs]

well you could fart as you do burpee ... heard that alot esp if done after a good night out on the black gold and curry lol

Like I said...NOT the way you suggested.

 

[now disabled]

Like I said...NOT the way you suggested.

why lol it involves well proven moves lol and some pleasure before ....ok there are some minor side effects that could be there ...but even they could be used to your benefit if acted upon

 

[Flying Crane]

I've seen it the other way. We've had a few professional dancers come into my dojang and they pick things up immediately. Dance teaches you control over your body, and these ladies had really good balance and posture. It was easy to teach them stances, forms, and kicks. They taught us a thing or two about stretching.

I see the same thing with tricking. Learning how to do a 540 hook kick has improved my regular hook kicks. Learning the 540 roundhouse kick has improved my tornado kicks. However, when I was teaching these to my demonstration team, I asked them when we would use these kicks. They had different answers, but none of them were right.

• "Self defense?" No, too slow for self defense.
• "Sparring?" No, sparring you have to be even faster to get the points, so if it's too slow for self defense it's too slow for sparring.

They couldn't figure it out until I told them "because it looks cool." You do these techniques to show off, because they're flashy, but they don't serve an actual purpose. (Although I have used a 540 back kick in sparring, but that was a little bit different).

Now, training these techniques is not a time-effective way to learn to fight. If pure fighting is what you're about, then these aren't worthless, but they aren't worth enough to be worth your time. They're fun to do, they do help you hone the root technique you're working on, and as @Headhunter and @gpseymour mentioned, they are good exercise (or you do good exercise to get your core into shape to do them).

She was definitely able to learn movement quickly, but the “quality” of the movement was all wrong for martial purposes.

Interestingly enough, this was in a capoeira school, which everyone stereotypes as “dance-like” (which I disagree with, but that is a different discussion). Capoeira uses lots of spin kicks, one of which is called Armada, and is a spinning outward crescent kick. Her Armada always looked like a dancer doing a pirouette. She was unable to root her supporting foot to find power and use the kicking foot like a weapon. She would just twirl with her leg stuck out and her toes pointed. If she ever landed that kick, she would have simply fallen over without injuring the opponent, and possibly hurting her own ankle on impact.

She was always trying to flow in ways that a dancer moves, but that is often based on practiced choreography in a dance performance piece. In the spontaneity of the roda, her movement would freeze up and her structure would collapse.

Back to what I said earlier, perhaps on balance her dance background was more benefit than detriment. Perhaps she was one example and was not typical of most dancers. I dunno. But I definitely saw lots of things in how she moved that came from dance, and were bad habits in capoeira. It was difficult for her to break those habits, and she only stuck with it for a brief time so I cannot say how she might have ultimately succeeded or not.

In my opinion, it is a mixed bag. Some benefits from the movement training, but absolutely needs translation into something appropriate for martial arts. Some people can get it figured out, and some cannot, and I really believe that some never really understand the difference and just keep doing it “their way”.

 

[skribs]

She was definitely able to learn movement quickly, but the “quality” of the movement was all wrong for martial purposes.

Interestingly enough, this was in a capoeira school, which everyone stereotypes as “dance-like” (which I disagree with, but that is a different discussion). Capoeira uses lots of spin kicks, one of which is called Armada, and is a spinning outward crescent kick. Her Armada always looked like a dancer doing a pirouette. She was unable to root her supporting foot to find power and use the kicking foot like a weapon. She would just twirl with her leg stuck out and her toes pointed. If she ever landed that kick, she would have simply fallen over without injuring the opponent, and possibly hurting her own ankle on impact.

She was always trying to flow in ways that a dancer moves, but that is often based on practiced choreography in a dance performance piece. In the spontaneity of the roda, her movement would freeze up and her structure would collapse.

Back to what I said earlier, perhaps on balance her dance background was more benefit than detriment. Perhaps she was one example and was not typical of most dancers. I dunno. But I definitely saw lots of things in how she moved that came from dance, and were bad habits in capoeira. It was difficult for her to break those habits, and she only stuck with it for a brief time so I cannot say how she might have ultimately succeeded or not.

In my opinion, it is a mixed bag. Some benefits from the movement training, but absolutely needs translation into something appropriate for martial arts. Some people can get it figured out, and some cannot, and I really believe that some never really understand the difference and just keep doing it “their way”.

What steps did you take to try to correct this? Hits on a heavy target? Sparring against a real person? Did you point this out to her? How did she try to correct this, or was she even aware of it?

We do some of our kicks that way when we're doing demonstrations. Doesn't mean that it won't change to a more powerful kick when needed.

 

[Flying Crane]

What steps did you take to try to correct this? Hits on a heavy target? Sparring against a real person? Did you point this out to her? How did she try to correct this, or was she even aware of it?

We do some of our kicks that way when we're doing demonstrations. Doesn't mean that it won't change to a more powerful kick when needed.

Of course we worked on it, we attended the same capoeira school. I was not the teacher, and given that we were dating she often had a hard time taking correction from me so often I could not be as direct in helping her as I might have been. But she would kick targets and I would try to give her pointers and she attended class.

Perhaps one problem was that she was a very skilled dancer and I think she had a hard time not being good at a movement method. It was frustrating for her and she ultimately decided to focus her efforts on dance, and not capoeira. Sometimes people who are good at something cannot bring themselves to do something else where they are a beginner.

We also trained together in a taiji school, where we were both beginners. She could follow the movement, but again there was a lack of body connection. We both got that criticism from the Sifu, but I think she had a harder time hearing it. But she would compartmentalize her movement. Arms were arms, feet were feet, etc. not much body unity in it.

 

[skribs]

Of course we worked on it, we attended the same capoeira school. I was not the teacher, and given that we were dating she often had a hard time taking correction from me so often I could not be as direct in helping her as I might have been. But she would kick targets and I would try to give her pointers and she attended class.

Perhaps one problem was that she was a very skilled dancer and I think she had a hard time not being good at a movement method. It was frustrating for her and she ultimately decided to focus her efforts on dance, and not capoeira. Sometimes people who are good at something cannot bring themselves to do something else where they are a beginner.

We also trained together in a taiji school, where we were both beginners. She could follow the movement, but again there was a lack of body connection. We both got that criticism from the Sifu, but I think she had a harder time hearing it. But she would compartmentalize her movement. Arms were arms, feet were feet, etc. not much body unity in it.

It's not been my experience that the mind-body connection is hard for dancers. It's been the opposite.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

But I definitely saw lots of things in how she moved that came from dance, and were bad habits in capoeira. It was difficult for her to break those habits, and she only stuck with it for a brief time so I cannot say how she might have ultimately succeeded or not.

I've bolded what I think is a key point here.

I don't know what "a brief time" means in this case, but just for argument's sake, let's pretend it was 6 months.

If she had no prior background in dance (sports, martial arts, whatever), then after six months she might still be struggling with basic choreography, balance, coordination, flexibility, being able to spin without getting dizzy, and so on. She might not even be ready to seriously address combative issues such as power and timing. Since she had the dance training, that gave her the opportunity of getting to the point where she needed to address the combative aspects a lot sooner.

Sometimes people who are good at something cannot bring themselves to do something else where they are a beginner.

There's the issue. Refusal to adopt a beginner's mind is always a problem.

 

[drop bear]

I'm going to figure out a way to make aa burpee a practical fighting technique. And no, not the way @now disabled suggested.

Seriously?

You make them sprawls.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I'm going to figure out a way to make aa burpee a practical fighting technique. And no, not the way @now disabled suggested.

Hey, just act like it's a form, and look for the hidden level.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

She was definitely able to learn movement quickly, but the “quality” of the movement was all wrong for martial purposes.

Interestingly enough, this was in a capoeira school, which everyone stereotypes as “dance-like” (which I disagree with, but that is a different discussion). Capoeira uses lots of spin kicks, one of which is called Armada, and is a spinning outward crescent kick. Her Armada always looked like a dancer doing a pirouette. She was unable to root her supporting foot to find power and use the kicking foot like a weapon. She would just twirl with her leg stuck out and her toes pointed. If she ever landed that kick, she would have simply fallen over without injuring the opponent, and possibly hurting her own ankle on impact.

She was always trying to flow in ways that a dancer moves, but that is often based on practiced choreography in a dance performance piece. In the spontaneity of the roda, her movement would freeze up and her structure would collapse.

Back to what I said earlier, perhaps on balance her dance background was more benefit than detriment. Perhaps she was one example and was not typical of most dancers. I dunno. But I definitely saw lots of things in how she moved that came from dance, and were bad habits in capoeira. It was difficult for her to break those habits, and she only stuck with it for a brief time so I cannot say how she might have ultimately succeeded or not.

In my opinion, it is a mixed bag. Some benefits from the movement training, but absolutely needs translation into something appropriate for martial arts. Some people can get it figured out, and some cannot, and I really believe that some never really understand the difference and just keep doing it “their way”.

I've seen a similar effect when someone with aiki-intensive Aikido training tries to do a single-leg or double-leg. They try to do it "the aiki way" - soft and yielding - which doesn't seem to work with that technique unless you catch someone stumbling at you crotch-first.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Seriously?

You make them sprawls.

With a suplex finish?

 

[Flying Crane]

It's not been my experience that the mind-body connection is hard for dancers. It's been the opposite.

Well, we have different experiences. This is what I observed. I was a senior student at the capoeira academy at the time, what is termed a graduated student, so I had a decent grounding in the system.

 

[Flying Crane]

I've bolded what I think is a key point here.

I don't know what "a brief time" means in this case, but just for argument's sake, let's pretend it was 6 months.

If she had no prior background in dance (sports, martial arts, whatever), then after six months she might still be struggling with basic choreography, balance, coordination, flexibility, being able to spin without getting dizzy, and so on. She might not even be ready to seriously address combative issues such as power and timing. Since she had the dance training, that gave her the opportunity of getting to the point where she needed to address the combative aspects a lot sooner.



There's the issue. Refusal to adopt a beginner's mind is always a problem.

Good points, and I don’t recall exactly how long she attended regular classes, this was close to 20 years ago. I think she was coming for perhaps a year or so.

I had been with the school for several years and had shared in some teaching responsibilities during that time. I saw a lot of new students come and go and I don’t recall feeling like she had a serious head-start over some of the other beginners. Maybe in some ways, but it was definitely a learning process that she needed to go through and what advantages she did have needed to be fixed to make them appropriate for capoeira.

As I said, I feel it’s a mixed bag. Could be advantageous in some ways but definitely needs to be set on the right track.

 

[skribs]

Of course we worked on it, we attended the same capoeira school. I was not the teacher, and given that we were dating she often had a hard time taking correction from me so often I could not be as direct in helping her as I might have been. But she would kick targets and I would try to give her pointers and she attended class.

I think the more important question is...how does a martial artist start dating a dancer?

I'm...asking for a friend.

 

[skribs]

well you could fart as you do burpee ... heard that alot esp if done after a good night out on the black gold and curry lol

I've actually had one student use a fart as part of their self defense.

I don't know which is worse:

• That I was the "uke" at the time
• That the student is my mother

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I've actually had one student use a fart as part of their self defense.

I don't know which is worse:

• That I was the "uke" at the time
• That the student is my mother

That needs a "Funny, Not Funny, But Funny" rating.

 

[Flying Crane]

I think the more important question is...how does a martial artist start dating a dancer?

I'm...asking for a friend.

Ha!