Regarding Tricking

Obsidian Fury

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I've recently been researching this thing called tricking which is a mix of Gymnastics, dance, parkour and a bit of martial arts. While I wouldn't recommend tricking it during a match I can see some benefits to the practice of said skill for starters it looks like great cardio, good training for spacial awareness, mobility, and equilibrium.

What are your thoughts on whether learning said skill be beneficial or detrimental in any way to the MA you practice?
 

Headhunter

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Nothing wrong with it for exercise for actual combat training e.g self defence it doesn't sound that practical
 

JR 137

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Being a better athlete will certainly help. Does being fast, stronger, more agile and improved endurance hinder SD skills? Not at all IMO. And you can grab onto stuff and climb away :)
 

Balrog

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I've recently been researching this thing called tricking which is a mix of Gymnastics, dance, parkour and a bit of martial arts. While I wouldn't recommend tricking it during a match I can see some benefits to the practice of said skill for starters it looks like great cardio, good training for spacial awareness, mobility, and equilibrium.

What are your thoughts on whether learning said skill be beneficial or detrimental in any way to the MA you practice?
Tricking, or XMA, is a joke and not a funny one at that. It is what I call movie-fu. I find it detrimental to training in the martial art that is your core, because the bad habits you learn in tricking will carry over.
 

Gerry Seymour

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I've recently been researching this thing called tricking which is a mix of Gymnastics, dance, parkour and a bit of martial arts. While I wouldn't recommend tricking it during a match I can see some benefits to the practice of said skill for starters it looks like great cardio, good training for spacial awareness, mobility, and equilibrium.

What are your thoughts on whether learning said skill be beneficial or detrimental in any way to the MA you practice?
I can't see it as detrimental, unless it takes too much time away from your main training. By the way, you forgot to add to your list "it's probably fun" and "it looks cool" - each of which is a good enough reason for learning tricking, on their own.
 

Gerry Seymour

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Tricking, or XMA, is a joke and not a funny one at that. It is what I call movie-fu. I find it detrimental to training in the martial art that is your core, because the bad habits you learn in tricking will carry over.
I don't know about that, Balrog. If someone studies dance and MA, or gymnastics and MA, there's very little detriment to their MA (and probably more benefit than detriment). Now, if the tricking is taught as the MA, that would be problematic, but if the tricking is taught as an ancillary skill, I can't see it being a problem.
 

hoshin1600

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I don't know about that, Balrog. If someone studies dance and MA, or gymnastics and MA, there's very little detriment to their MA (and probably more benefit than detriment). Now, if the tricking is taught as the MA, that would be problematic, but if the tricking is taught as an ancillary skill, I can't see it being a problem.
i think Balrog may have a point, in that the lines between actual self defense and performance art get blurry. those who do not have a solid back round in self defense do not have the experience to know real from fantasy. i think the martial arts has a hard enough time with this as it is and XMA stuff only makes matters worse. but i am talking as a general over arching collective rather than the individual.
 

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I don't know about that, Balrog. If someone studies dance and MA, or gymnastics and MA, there's very little detriment to their MA (and probably more benefit than detriment). Now, if the tricking is taught as the MA, that would be problematic, but if the tricking is taught as an ancillary skill, I can't see it being a problem.
I would disagree. Years ago I dated a woman who had a very strong background in dance. She was getting into martial arts, but all of her movement was like dance and it was detrimental to martial training. It was difficult to make the separation.

Some kinds of training do interfere with martial training.
 

Gerry Seymour

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i think Balrog may have a point, in that the lines between actual self defense and performance art get blurry. those who do not have a solid back round in self defense do not have the experience to know real from fantasy. i think the martial arts has a hard enough time with this as it is and XMA stuff only makes matters worse. but i am talking as a general over arching collective rather than the individual.
That's a reasonable point - and that's why I made the comment about "if the the tricking is taught as the MA". If it's taught as something separate, I can't see a problem with it.
 

Gerry Seymour

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I would disagree. Years ago I dated a woman who had a very strong background in dance. She was getting into martial arts, but all of her movement was like dance and it was detrimental to martial training. It was difficult to make the separation.

Some kinds of training do interfere with martial training.
That's talking about someone with a long background in something moving to something else, and isn't the same as training between the two. I knew one instructor who actually preferred students to have a dance background, because it made it easier to teach them the relatively light approach their MA used for off-balancing, as well as the footwork they used.

But you make a valid point.
 

Steve

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i think Balrog may have a point, in that the lines between actual self defense and performance art get blurry. those who do not have a solid back round in self defense do not have the experience to know real from fantasy. i think the martial arts has a hard enough time with this as it is and XMA stuff only makes matters worse. but i am talking as a general over arching collective rather than the individual.
Come on. The lines between self defence and performance art are blurred in many traditional styles. Xma just embraces it, which ironically might make it more effective for self defence.
 

now disabled

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Come on. The lines between self defence and performance art are blurred in many traditional styles. Xma just embraces it, which ironically might make it more effective for self defence.


Could it not be said that, at one time what is now looked on as performance or the like term, maybe had some practical use back when?
 

JR 137

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Could it not be said that, at one time what is now looked on as performance or the like term, maybe had some practical use back when?
Its all how its approached, taught and trained. Without understanding and/or teaching why, how and when, and everything has the potential to become a dance. Even the most easily understood and demonstrated stuff.
 

Tony Dismukes

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I would disagree. Years ago I dated a woman who had a very strong background in dance. She was getting into martial arts, but all of her movement was like dance and it was detrimental to martial training. It was difficult to make the separation.

Some kinds of training do interfere with martial training.
I think that may have been a matter of that particular individual and her personal mindset.

In my experience as a teacher, students who come in with some prior experience in using and controlling their bodies - dancers, gymnasts, rock climbers, strong man competitors, wrestlers, football players, practitioners of other martial arts, whatever - learn faster and do significantly better on average than those without that experience.

Do some of them run into issues where they get mentally stuck on their old ways of movement? Sure, but thats a problem with their mental flexibility not their prior experience. Compared to the issues some people without a movement background have (complete lack of kinesthetic awareness, poor balance, etc), theyre much easier to fix.
 

Flying Crane

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I think that may have been a matter of that particular individual and her personal mindset.

In my experience as a teacher, students who come in with some prior experience in using and controlling their bodies - dancers, gymnasts, rock climbers, strong man competitors, wrestlers, football players, practitioners of other martial arts, whatever - learn faster and do significantly better on average than those without that experience.

Do some of them run into issues where they get mentally stuck on their old ways of movement? Sure, but thats a problem with their mental flexibility not their prior experience. Compared to the issues some people without a movement background have (complete lack of kinesthetic awareness, poor balance, etc), theyre much easier to fix.
Interesting thoughts. It may be that on balance, the dance background gave her an edge vs. if she had not had any significant movement training. Even though it created some movement habits that were inappropriate for martial arts and needed to be altered.

Perhaps a better way to see it is when people expect something like dance training to directly and immediately translate into martial skill, then the answer is no. But that background can still be an asset in the long run and can shorten the time it takes to build that skill.
 

skribs

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I would disagree. Years ago I dated a woman who had a very strong background in dance. She was getting into martial arts, but all of her movement was like dance and it was detrimental to martial training. It was difficult to make the separation.

Some kinds of training do interfere with martial training.

I've seen it the other way. We've had a few professional dancers come into my dojang and they pick things up immediately. Dance teaches you control over your body, and these ladies had really good balance and posture. It was easy to teach them stances, forms, and kicks. They taught us a thing or two about stretching.

I see the same thing with tricking. Learning how to do a 540 hook kick has improved my regular hook kicks. Learning the 540 roundhouse kick has improved my tornado kicks. However, when I was teaching these to my demonstration team, I asked them when we would use these kicks. They had different answers, but none of them were right.
  • "Self defense?" No, too slow for self defense.
  • "Sparring?" No, sparring you have to be even faster to get the points, so if it's too slow for self defense it's too slow for sparring.
They couldn't figure it out until I told them "because it looks cool." You do these techniques to show off, because they're flashy, but they don't serve an actual purpose. (Although I have used a 540 back kick in sparring, but that was a little bit different).

Now, training these techniques is not a time-effective way to learn to fight. If pure fighting is what you're about, then these aren't worthless, but they aren't worth enough to be worth your time. They're fun to do, they do help you hone the root technique you're working on, and as @Headhunter and @gpseymour mentioned, they are good exercise (or you do good exercise to get your core into shape to do them).
 

JR 137

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I've seen it the other way. We've had a few professional dancers come into my dojang and they pick things up immediately. Dance teaches you control over your body, and these ladies had really good balance and posture. It was easy to teach them stances, forms, and kicks. They taught us a thing or two about stretching.

I see the same thing with tricking. Learning how to do a 540 hook kick has improved my regular hook kicks. Learning the 540 roundhouse kick has improved my tornado kicks. However, when I was teaching these to my demonstration team, I asked them when we would use these kicks. They had different answers, but none of them were right.
  • "Self defense?" No, too slow for self defense.
  • "Sparring?" No, sparring you have to be even faster to get the points, so if it's too slow for self defense it's too slow for sparring.
They couldn't figure it out until I told them "because it looks cool." You do these techniques to show off, because they're flashy, but they don't serve an actual purpose. (Although I have used a 540 back kick in sparring, but that was a little bit different).

Now, training these techniques is not a time-effective way to learn to fight. If pure fighting is what you're about, then these aren't worthless, but they aren't worth enough to be worth your time. They're fun to do, they do help you hone the root technique you're working on, and as @Headhunter and @gpseymour mentioned, they are good exercise (or you do good exercise to get your core into shape to do them).
Pushups, burpies, squats, etc. arent exactly time-effective ways to learn how to fight either, but anyone with any common sense at all knows the value in doing them.

Those jumping spinning flying kicks definitely have their place - demonstrations and agility training. Just because one shouldnt really use them in a SD situation doesnt make them worthless. I wouldnt attempt a burpee in a fight either :)
 

now disabled

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Pushups, burpies, squats, etc. arent exactly time-effective ways to learn how to fight either, but anyone with any common sense at all knows the value in doing them.

Those jumping spinning flying kicks definitely have their place - demonstrations and agility training. Just because one shouldnt really use them in a SD situation doesnt make them worthless. I wouldnt attempt a burpee in a fight either :)


Just eat plenty garlic and a few curries then drop ee bit and burp on them should at least provide a bit of SD...................lol sorry
 
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