Cross Ranking....In A System You Never Trained In.

[Danjo]

I think there are three types of cross ranking:

1) Honorary rank - as a thank you.
I think this was more appropriate in earlier times (when rank was tested and earned for more often) and when people really worked as complete martial artists and there were fewer masters around.
Example
Another master (say from Jiu-Jitsu), comes to my seminar that I'm giving on Advanced Kenpo Self-Defense Fighting Theories. We meet, talk, and he brings a boatload of students to the next seminar because he enjoys the striking part so much. I love it because he's bringing my more people and helping exposure. We talk, maybe train together and share ideas, and as a parting gift, we award each other honorary Black Belts in each other's arts in gratitude for service and dedication.

I'm good with this - as long as it is disclosed as such. One important thing here . . . it's not a promotion for either of us. We would both be advanced dans (5th+) and we just awarded each other a 1st Degree. Why? As a thank you. We might mention it, but neither would claim to teach the other art, and we both (as mentioned earlier) would simply respect it.

I don't really like this one. To me, if something is honorary, then it should only be in certain very narrow cases. I remember when they gave Sean Connery a black belt in Karate because of his movie You Only Live Twice, where James Bond was doing training in the movie and used a lot of Karateka in it. It was ceremonial and no one ever would be in danger of believing that Connery earned his black belt from them. To me, unless there is a big public ceremony hyping the honorary status of the belt awarded, then it shouldn't be done.

For the sort of thing that you mention above, I think a certificate of appreciation is sufficient.

2) Equivalency Cross-Ranking
There are plenty of really similar arts around. A lot of Japanese Karates, Hawaiian-based Kenpo/Kempos, Jiu-Jitsus, etc. You walk into my school, demonstrate techniques and I think, "You are a Shodan . . . you don't know my forms yet, but that's irrelevant. You're skill is what I would put at this level, therefore, welcome." You don't know my forms yet, but if that's not the main thrust of the school - then that's alright. I think about Judo ranking where your rank is a direct reflection on your competitive abilities. You might walk in off the street, beat a black belt and receive your Shodan. If that's the structure of your system, that's fine - it's earned.

This one is totally bogus IMO. If the forms aren't the same etc., then it's not the same art and there should be no cross-ranking.

3) Historical/Ancestor Cross-Ranking
Similar to the above, but if your art derived from arts X, Y and Z, and you master style A, then there is something to be said about saying you have a certain level of proficiency in arts X, Y and Z - maybe not the same, but some. I'm ok if an ancestor art recognizes you at a certain rank because of it.

Maybe in the old days, but now there should be plenty of legitimate black belts to train under in a given art so that you would not need to be cross-ranked by someone from a parent art. When Adriano Emperado gave Ed Parker an 8th degree, it was just a show of solidarity between Chow's first black belt (Emperado) and one of Chow's later black belts (Parker). Parker didn't really need the rank from Emperado, and was in fact heading up his own system by that time. But again, it was a public show of support, and there was no mistaking what it was about.

 

[just2kicku]

1) Honorary rank - as a thank you.
I think this was more appropriate in earlier times (when rank was tested and earned for more often) and when people really worked as complete martial artists and there were fewer masters around.
Example
Another master (say from Jiu-Jitsu), comes to my seminar that I'm giving on Advanced Kenpo Self-Defense Fighting Theories. We meet, talk, and he brings a boatload of students to the next seminar because he enjoys the striking part so much. I love it because he's bringing my more people and helping exposure. We talk, maybe train together and share ideas, and as a parting gift, we award each other honorary Black Belts in each other's arts in gratitude for service and dedication.

Nope, gotta disagree. You want to say thanks, give em a t- shirt from the seminar and take him to lunch. I think that thank you BB is a crock.

2) Equivalency Cross-Ranking
There are plenty of really similar arts around. A lot of Japanese Karates, Hawaiian-based Kenpo/Kempos, Jiu-Jitsus, etc. You walk into my school, demonstrate techniques and I think, "You are a Shodan . . . you don't know my forms yet, but that's irrelevant. You're skill is what I would put at this level, therefore, welcome." You don't know my forms yet, but if that's not the main thrust of the school - then that's alright. I think about Judo ranking where your rank is a direct reflection on your competitive abilities. You might walk in off the street, beat a black belt and receive your Shodan. If that's the structure of your system, that's fine - it's earned.

Same system OK, but when someone, who comes in to learn Your art they shouldn't be ranked by you until they learn YOUR system

3) Historical/Ancestor Cross-Ranking
Similar to the above, but if your art derived from arts X, Y and Z, and you master style A, then there is something to be said about saying you have a certain level of proficiency in arts X, Y and Z - maybe not the same, but some. I'm ok if an ancestor art recognizes you at a certain rank because of it.

Don't agree with this one either, But, what it all boils down to with all of these is that these things happen. And there's really nothing you can do to stop it. It's this crossranking BS that gives the fakes a mastership from everything from karate to underwater basket weaving.

 

[MJS]

I don't really like this one. To me, if something is honorary, then it should only be in certain very narrow cases. I remember when they gave Sean Connery a black belt in Karate because of his movie You Only Live Twice, where James Bond was doing training in the movie and used a lot of Karateka in it. It was ceremonial and no one ever would be in danger of believing that Connery earned his black belt from them. To me, unless there is a big public ceremony hyping the honorary status of the belt awarded, then it shouldn't be done.

For the sort of thing that you mention above, I think a certificate of appreciation is sufficient.




This one is totally bogus IMO. If the forms aren't the same etc., then it's not the same art and there should be no cross-ranking.



Maybe in the old days, but now there should be plenty of legitimate black belts to train under in a given art so that you would not need to be cross-ranked by someone from a parent art. When Adriano Emperado gave Ed Parker an 8th degree, it was just a show of solidarity between Chow's first black belt (Emperado) and one of Chow's later black belts (Parker). Parker didn't really need the rank from Emperado, and was in fact heading up his own system by that time. But again, it was a public show of support, and there was no mistaking what it was about.

Nope, gotta disagree. You want to say thanks, give em a t- shirt from the seminar and take him to lunch. I think that thank you BB is a crock.





Same system OK, but when someone, who comes in to learn Your art they shouldn't be ranked by you until they learn YOUR system




Don't agree with this one either, But, what it all boils down to with all of these is that these things happen. And there's really nothing you can do to stop it. It's this crossranking BS that gives the fakes a mastership from everything from karate to underwater basket weaving.

I'm with both of you on this. My thoughts exactly!

 

[mwd0818]

First, let me just say my earlier post wasn't necessarily an endorsement of those types of cross-ranks, but at least a recognition of some legitimacy to them.

I don't really like this one. To me, if something is honorary, then it should only be in certain very narrow cases. I remember when they gave Sean Connery a black belt in Karate because of his movie You Only Live Twice, where James Bond was doing training in the movie and used a lot of Karateka in it. It was ceremonial and no one ever would be in danger of believing that Connery earned his black belt from them. To me, unless there is a big public ceremony hyping the honorary status of the belt awarded, then it shouldn't be done.

For the sort of thing that you mention above, I think a certificate of appreciation is sufficient.

I agree that a certificate would be more applicable than an honorary rank. I mentioned that I saw it more as something earlier in a tight community, but I definitely agree that it would be in a public forum. I think there are important factors in it. One, it would be in a large setting. Two, it would be a rank that is NOT a promotion. I decide to launch a big tournament and Rickson Gracie comes to help me secure a grappling division. He endorses it, it becomes the largest Striking/Grappling tournament this side of the Pecos. In a ceremony, as a thank you for his contribution and in recognition of his skills, I present him an honorary Shodan before the Black Belt Fighting Championship. Sure - I'm ok with that. Not a big fan of it, but I can see it happening.

This one is totally bogus IMO. If the forms aren't the same etc., then it's not the same art and there should be no cross-ranking.

About my second point in being of equivalent ability. I actually think this is the most legitimate form IF your ranking is based on competitive abilities (fighting skills) and not forms and techniques necessarily. Arts like judo that have this I can agree with. If I walk in a flip your best Black Belt on his butt even if I have an unorthodox style, I can see someone awarding it even though I don't know the names of your techniques and forms. This, again, I can only see if that's the way you test and promote. If you require knowledge of forms and techniques and don't put fighting ability at the top of the requirements, then this is bogus. But if you are competing in the environment of the style (say Judo), and can win in the confines of those rules using a different variety of training, then I'd say you have earned it. Again, it would still be "'honorary" in that I wouldn't think you can teach my art, but you've obviously proved your worthiness in it.

Maybe in the old days, but now there should be plenty of legitimate black belts to train under in a given art so that you would not need to be cross-ranked by someone from a parent art. When Adriano Emperado gave Ed Parker an 8th degree, it was just a show of solidarity between Chow's first black belt (Emperado) and one of Chow's later black belts (Parker). Parker didn't really need the rank from Emperado, and was in fact heading up his own system by that time. But again, it was a public show of support, and there was no mistaking what it was about.

I think the biggest part of the cross-ranking though is the HONORARY part of it. If I don't NEED rank from you, but you give it to me as an honor, and everyone knows it as such, then sure. The problem is when you give me a rank, I claim it and start presenting as an EARNED rank. If I'm a 5th or 8th or 10th (legitimate) and you give me an honorary Shodan for services to the arts that you've benefitted from, then whatever. Would a certificate of appreciation be more appropriate? Probably. Personally, I'd rather you give me an engraved katana . . . those are great tokens. But if all you have is an old Black Belt that you want to say thank you with . . . ok . . .

Additionally, if you doing it for "solidarity" (Emperado to Parker based on Chow lineage) then great. Again, it all comes back to the point:

It's an honor and to be treated as such.

The only exception is in a pure sport art in which your skills exceed the norm of the sport and rank is defined by ability in that sport.

I will also admit that the my third point about styles used to form the art is rare if ever possible to be legitimate unless you are leaving the ancestor arts relatively unchanged.

 

[Milt G.]

Hello,
I see "cross ranking" as a political tool as well. A back scratching kind of thing.

While I do not, generally, agree with cross ranking, I do feel that if the arts are VERY similar, or very closely related, that THE QUALIFIED INSTRUCTOR may make an appointment of ranking to another. It is generally not made at the same level, but a portion of past training and knowledge is considered. When you allow one to wear a certain level belt in your school, you ARE recognizing some skill and ability. Sometimes that is all that cross ranking is. I like the way Mr. Weston's group does it.

This thing, as previously stated, happens all of the time. While there is some misuse, as in anything, most of what I have seen I would consider appropriate.

In actuality... Who really cares. The burden of rank rests on the recipient and the appointing authority. Frauds and "under achievers" are quickly identified and acknowledged. Most practitioners with time in will know who can really "dance", right? I will always want someone to "show me", rather then tell me, anyway. So... Does it really matter? I have seen legitimate rank holders of varying levels of skill. Much high rank is often "administrative" as well. I have seen excellent practitioners of low rank and so-so practitioners of high rank. All just my opinion, of course.

In the end that is all it really is. Just someone's opinion.
Cross ranking is one of those "double edged swords". Can be good, or otherwise. Again, it comes down to the individual. The individual who decides to do it, and the individual that must become and live what has been bestowed on them.

Thank you,
Milt G.

 

[Josh Oakley]

in regards to cross-ranking, all I can say is, "why would I throw away a perfectly good opportunity to become a white-belt again?"

As far as honorary ranks go, I don't need rank. My credentials are my head and my fists. If you want to honor me, spread my good name and help me build my reputation. That's a better political move than an HonoraryBB anyway. Instructors stake their career on their reputation, and good rep comes from people, not paper.