Contingency Applications, dynamic modifications/follow-through --video samples

[GaryR]

So in the Kata thread some good discussion with K-Man came about regarding follow-up movements and the natural reactions of the opponent. Some natural reactions like putting a hand up to protect the eyes/face, or putting a knee up to protect the groin for example can be expected, but there is no guarantee. Additionally, if the person has specific training, it can more probable that they may react with such training. Keeping this in mind, there are countless drills that be done to practice how to deal with such things. Moreover, one should train for the contingencies that a punch/strike/kick will not land, or that a block will be ineffective etc.



Methods that put your opponent at a disadvantage during their counter-attack are optimal. Things like stealing their balance, stuffing their momentum, approaching/attacking at the best angle relative to their body, are all important. Being able to continue your momentum is key, and if change is required on the fly tactile sensitivity should be up to par enough to change with the situation. There is no time to *think about what the next step is, it has to be instinctive based on your training. Sure the next step in your kata may come out, or you may start a movement in another kata, but maybe not. Perhaps it will happen as it did when practicing your Bunkai, but maybe not.


So I guess some discussion points for the thread are:

1. What training drills do you use to help you adjust to a combat situation? Push Hands? Bunkai? Describe....
2. What methods / techniques do you find the most useful?
3. What reactions do you typically get from your opponent?
4. Do you train and drill realistically with people of different styles? If so, do you notice a different reaction from them, and how does it affect your approach?
5. What do you find yourself doing instinctively in different situations such as:
   1. If you throw the first strike and he blocks / evades your initial attack successfully, moves of the line and re-attacks?
   2. He blocks your your counter (describe the kind of block and counter)
   3. You fail to take his center of balance?
   4. You fail a throw?
   5. You fail a joint lock?
   6. He takes your balance?

And finally how much does the foregoing differ from your ideal method/move/technique/tactic, et al?




The last kata thread made me remember some old clips (decade or more old) --I had that could illustrate this point to some degree.


These were filmed while I was instructing the students in Xingyi's “Pi Chuan” fist, and derivative versions of the movement, altering both the angle of the strike and the follow ups. None of these methods were pre-planned, they were all done simply on the fly to show how many variables can stem from one movement. These were not done for a DVD, but for the student's private shelf, and they were not being taught and drilled at the time in real-time speed/power...simply done to show some variables. Although this student was too passive, I changed up anyhow, and moved him in different directions pretending he could make some valid counters, regain his balance etc. for the benefit of the class.

1. Assuming the pi chuan was thwarted and blending/redirecting the opponents strike/elbow/block and using an elbow --- <font color="#000000"><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MSKKQcLp8c">
2. Same as above, but following through with take-down (pressure point under nose, kicking out leg) – <font color="#000000"><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sEHJiFQIzjA">
3. Same set up basically, I paused here to highlight an elbow break before the throw (which is a different direction than before, not kicking out leg but tripping him over it) <font color="#000000">
4. Similar, but with different kind of throw – <font color="#000000"><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0tcqadgPiY">
5. Another type of throw after elbow reattack, and a change of direction, pretending he may have successfully adjusted out of the lock/trap - <font color="#000000"><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNXYNTzlvUk">
6. Another similar throw after a successful strike –<font color="#000000">
7. Showing the student after the fact how one motion lead to/bended into the other <font color="#000000">

If anyone would like to share their application/modifications/drill etc. that would be great, video even better! Sharing is caring!

Best,

G

 

[K-man]

So in the Kata thread some good discussion with K-Man came about regarding follow-up movements and the natural reactions of the opponent. Some natural reactions like putting a hand up to protect the eyes/face, or putting a knee up to protect the groin for example can be expected, but there is no guarantee. Additionally, if the person has specific training, it can more probable that they may react with such training. Keeping this in mind, there are countless drills that be done to practice how to deal with such things. Moreover, one should train for the contingencies that a punch/strike/kick will not land, or that a block will be ineffective etc.

Agree.

Methods that put your opponent at a disadvantage during their counter-attack are optimal. Things like stealing their balance, stuffing their momentum, approaching/attacking at the best angle relative to their body, are all important. Being able to continue your momentum is key, and if change is required on the fly tactile sensitivity should be up to par enough to change with the situation. There is no time to *think about what the next step is, it has to be instinctive based on your training. Sure the next step in your kata may come out, or you may start a movement in another kata, but maybe not. Perhaps it will happen as it did when practicing your Bunkai, but maybe not.

Agree again!

Gary, if you want to pick a fight, you need to post something that is patently wrong. This effort gets you a 'C-' on that score.

So I guess some discussion points for the thread are:

1. What training drills do you use to help you adjust to a combat situation? Push Hands? Bunkai? Describe....
2. What methods / techniques do you find the most useful?
3. What reactions do you typically get from your opponent?
4. Do you train and drill realistically with people of different styles? If so, do you notice a different reaction from them, and how does it affect your approach?
5. What do you find yourself doing instinctively in different situations such as:
   1. If you throw the first strike and he blocks / evades your initial attack successfully, moves of the line and re-attacks?
   2. He blocks your your counter (describe the kind of block and counter)
   3. You fail to take his center of balance?
   4. You fail a throw?
   5. You fail a joint lock?
   6. He takes your balance?

And finally how much does the foregoing differ from your ideal method/move/technique/tactic, et al?

1. Lots of unstructured push hands similar to Chi Sau but incorporating the principles of Chi Na. Also, adding aikido principles of irimi (entering) and take downs.

Lots of combinations taken from kata as bunkai but not always flowing to the next point of kata. (Another long discussion possible.)

Standing close with one person punching as fast as they can, mixed up but continuous, with the other person deflecting the strikes without resistance. This needs to be done with good control from the 'puncher'. Really is like Chi Sau without controlling your attacker's arms.

2. Techniques that blend, rather than clash.

3. Because you are entering, instead of retreating which an aggressor normally expects, surprise.

4. Most Karate and TKD people are challenged by the 'in your face approach'. Aikido people accept it as normal. WC people don't believe it when you say you teach karate.

5. a) Normally I try not to attack first. If I really had to go first I would probably start with a kick to he shin to distract.

b) I would normally be aware that my strike could be blocked and, assuming we are at close quarters, the block would be anticipated. The continuous bunkai training we do works because our partner blocks so we are constantly training for that possibility. (In bunkai if they don't block they get hit, sometimes more than once.)

c) A little more difficult but I teach if you fail to take your opponent's centre you don't enter a strength competition. You need to change direction the moment you encounter resistance.

d) e) and f) as for c)

g) try to stay relaxed and go with the throw or takedown while retaining hold of your opponent.

Not sure how to answer the last point as it is pretty much covered in the other points.

The last kata thread made me remember some old clips (decade or more old) --I had that could illustrate this point to some degree.


These were filmed while I was instructing the students in Xingyi's &#8220;Pi Chuan&#8221; fist, and derivative versions of the movement, altering both the angle of the strike and the follow ups. None of these methods were pre-planned, they were all done simply on the fly to show how many variables can stem from one movement.

Wow! What a challenge.

Gary, what I like about this post is that I don't have to justify my position on kata bunkai. From our previous discussions, it must seem that kata and kata bunkai is all I do. In fact that is not the case.

Your videos are very interesting. In particular the one with the right elbow strike followed by the take down is identical to my bunkai near the beginning of Sepai kata.

The last couple again are straight from my bunkai where in the kata you find gedan barai ( more commonly taught as a lower block against a kick). :asian:

 

[GaryR]

Gary, if you want to pick a fight, you need to post something that is patently wrong. This effort gets you a 'C-' on that score.

Dang! I'll try harder next time, heaver forbid we start to agree on things!

1. Lots of unstructured push hands similar to Chi Sau but incorporating the principles of Chi Na. Also, adding aikido principles of irimi (entering) and take downs.

Lots of combinations taken from kata as bunkai but not always flowing to the next point of kata. (Another long discussion possible.)

Standing close with one person punching as fast as they can, mixed up but continuous, with the other person deflecting the strikes without resistance. This needs to be done with good control from the 'puncher'. Really is like Chi Sau without controlling your attacker's arms.

Excellent, what do you mean without resistance? The puncher flows with the deflections? Do you mix up high and low punches?

2. Techniques that blend, rather than clash.

3. Because you are entering, instead of retreating which an aggressor normally expects, surprise.

Agreed for sure, and definitely moving in is a must.

4. Most Karate and TKD people are challenged by the 'in your face approach'. Aikido people accept it as normal. WC people don't believe it when you say you teach karate.

HA, quite unique I'm sure for a Karateka. TKD people definitely don't like to be rushed, takes their kicks out of play, and forces them to use skills that..... . One thing I've noticed with Aikido people is that many don't hit, they can be quite exceptional at throws / locks, but if you don't give them your balance, and have quick hands, it's much harder for them. Also, the Uke or whatever its called makes them basically use to full participation.

5. a) Normally I try not to attack first. If I really had to go first I would probably start with a kick to he shin to distract.

I have a range rule, I draw a line and tell them not to get closer (into my yellow range), if they do they get thumped. It just has to be quite clear to them that any closer and you will defend yourself, their action can then be counted as an assault and one can defend accordingly (not sure about Oz law)

b) I would normally be aware that my strike could be blocked and, assuming we are at close quarters, the block would be anticipated. The continuous bunkai training we do works because our partner blocks so we are constantly training for that possibility. (In bunkai if they don't block they get hit, sometimes more than once.)

c) A little more difficult but I teach if you fail to take your opponent's centre you don't enter a strength competition. You need to change direction the moment you encounter resistance.

d) e) and f) as for c)

g) try to stay relaxed and go with the throw or takedown while retaining hold of your opponent.

Not sure how to answer the last point as it is pretty much covered in the other points.

Excellent, for sure avoiding a strength competition is good, I'm a wimp, what is the saying? The body can only resist in one direction at once?

Wow! What a challenge.

Gary, what I like about this post is that I don't have to justify my position on kata bunkai. From our previous discussions, it must seem that kata and kata bunkai is all I do. In fact that is not the case.

Your videos are very interesting. In particular the one with the right elbow strike followed by the take down is identical to my bunkai near the beginning of Sepai kata.

The last couple again are straight from my bunkai where in the kata you find gedan barai ( more commonly taught as a lower block against a kick). :asian:

Thanks for the answers. At least you do more than Kata . It would be cool to see the similar bunkai if you get a chance.

Best,

Gary

 

[K-man]

Excellent, what do you mean without resistance? The puncher flows with the deflections? Do you mix up high and low punches?.

No. The punches must be thrown with intent. The training is to use just enough pressure to deflect the punch but not enough to make the attacker think the punch has been stopped. Punches can be any sort and to any target. That is why the person punching has to have good control. If you don't intercept the strike you can get hit. We don't worry about body punches but I don't like the guys hitting each other to the head, unless we put on protectors.

HA, quite unique I'm sure for a Karateka. TKD people definitely don't like to be rushed, takes their kicks out of play, and forces them to use skills that..... . One thing I've noticed with Aikido people is that many don't hit, they can be quite exceptional at throws / locks, but if you don't give them your balance, and have quick hands, it's much harder for them. Also, the Uke or whatever its called makes them basically use to full participation.

I think a lot of aikido schools don't teach the atemi and I feel that is short changing the students. Unless you are quite highly skilled or against a much smaller/weaker opponent, it is difficult to utilise aikido skills in a real situation without using a strike to divert attention. I presume it is the 'ukemi' or falling that you are referring to as 'uke'. Most schools ask for total compliance and no resistance against the techniques. I can understand the benefit of such training but I think you need to also test your skills against total resistance which we do most of the time.

I have a range rule, I draw a line and tell them not to get closer (into my yellow range), if they do they get thumped. It just has to be quite clear to them that any closer and you will defend yourself, their action can then be counted as an assault and one can defend accordingly (not sure about Oz law)

One of my guys is ex-LEO. We were discussing this last training session. Assault is generally when you are threatened, but it is very hard to get a criminal conviction on the threat alone, even at close range. If it escalates then you add 'battery' and the 'assault' falls in to place. Without witnesses it becomes "I said", "he said", but with witnesses we teach that you are always giving the impression that you don't want trouble and the aggression is all with the other guy, even if you hit first. In reality, in Australia, if you don't go looking for trouble you are unlikely to get into a fight.

WRT atemi.

It is interesting to note that O-Sensei, the founder of Aikido has often been quoted to say, &#8220;My technique is 70 percent atemi (striking) and 30 percent nage (throwing).&#8221;

Gozo Shioda, the founder of the Yoshinkan Aikido school repeats this

&#8220;The founder, Ueshiba Sensei, said, In a real battle, atemi is seventy percent, technique is thirty percent. The training that we do in the dojo is designed to teach us various sorts of techniques, the correct way to move our body, effective ways of using our power, and how to create a relationship with the other person.&#8221;

&#8220;Atemi is virtually omitted in Aikido training on the ground that a preliminary blow should not become a matter of predominant concern. However, there are quite a few cases in which the meaning of a technique becomes incomprehensible if the attendant atemi is left out. I suggest therefore that study should be made as to when atemi should be delivered in the execution of a technique and cases of it&#8217;s omission.&#8221;

http://seishinkanaikido.com/?p=301

I cannot understand the people who are adamant that there are no strikes in aikido. We train them with virtually every technique. Not that we actually hit hard or even make contact, but purely to demonstrate when they are used and where.

:asian:

 

[GaryR]

WRT atemi.

I cannot understand the people who are adamant that there are no strikes in aikido. We train them with virtually every technique. Not that we actually hit hard or even make contact, but purely to demonstrate when they are used and where.

:asian:

Yeah, neither can I. Sad--As the article you quoted said it's been virtually eliminated. I have know a few Aikidoka that still maintained it. Makes a lot more sense!

One of my guys is ex-LEO. We were discussing this last training session. Assault is generally when you are threatened, but it is very hard to get a criminal conviction on the threat alone, even at close range. If it escalates then you add 'battery' and the 'assault' falls in to place. Without witnesses it becomes "I said", "he said", but with witnesses we teach that you are always giving the impression that you don't want trouble and the aggression is all with the other guy, even if you hit first. In reality, in Australia, if you don't go looking for trouble you are unlikely to get into a fight.

In the US there are two basic kinds of assault 1) an attempt to commit a battery, or 2) the intentional creation (other than mere words)-of a reasonable apprehension in the mind of the victim of imminent bodily harm. (Sadly that was all from memory--I aced Crim in law school, and have done some criminal defense work)

One need not be scared to have "apprehension". And "other than mere words" can mean a simple gesture, and in the case I was mentioning--coming forward.

The easiest way I teach this boundary setting (and a good legal defense set up), is to put your hands up and very very loudly say, "please don't hurt me, don't come any closer" or something similar. I have done this once in a bar, all eyes went to the situation, at that point I had a dozen or so witnesses in my favor. In the US if there has been an actual touching, there can be no assault, only battery...FWIW

As you said, without witness, it's hard to prove who started it. Especially with no witnesses LEO's in the US like to arrest or cite both people very often and let the Prosecutor / Judge sort it out. Which means usually the guy with the best lawyer wins. Or they downgrade the charge to something like "Disturbing the peace", as they call it a mutual combat situation.

Thanks for clearing up the Aikido jargon!

G

 

[Aiki Lee]

So I guess some discussion points for the thread are:

1. What training drills do you use to help you adjust to a combat situation? Push Hands? Bunkai? Describe....
2. What methods / techniques do you find the most useful?
3. What reactions do you typically get from your opponent?
4. Do you train and drill realistically with people of different styles? If so, do you notice a different reaction from them, and how does it affect your approach?
5. What do you find yourself doing instinctively in different situations such as:
   1. If you throw the first strike and he blocks / evades your initial attack successfully, moves of the line and re-attacks?
   2. He blocks your your counter (describe the kind of block and counter)
   3. You fail to take his center of balance?
   4. You fail a throw?
   5. You fail a joint lock?
   6. He takes your balance?

And finally how much does the foregoing differ from your ideal method/move/technique/tactic, et al?


G

1. Usually when we find randori breaking down and becoming ugly its due to either a lack of proper entering, or a lack of ju (suppleness). So we have our flow drills, which are our first 16 techniques strung together to teach how if you screw up one, you can move to the next one in any order.
2. I find a lot of stuff useful. Technique-wise we try to get people to have a list of 3-5 techniques they feel confident with that they can utilize at the drop of a hat. Some of mine include muso dori (basically arm bars), irimi nage (basically a clothesline type manuever), and omote kote gyakku (a wrist lock). There are a lot of useful strategies and techniques found in our system. Too many to name; I'd be here all day.
3. All different kinds of reactions, depending on their backgrounds. Awareness is essential and we learn quickly to not get caught thinking about how we should react to something and instead focus on just action.
4. Yes, I would say so. Responses have not been that different as most of our tactics play on human nature in general.
5.
1. If I am attacking, every strike is a set up. If it lands, great. If not, then I have more strikes coming or I used the first one to set up a throw. If I get a read on my opponent that he is looking to counter I will set him up differently.
2. Are you saying that this would be a what if he blocks my counter to his technique? If so the answer would be Ju and probably resort to something from the flow drill I mentioned above.
3. If I messed this up, then I did a really crappy set up. If somehow I botch it, the answer is Ju again.
4. Ju
5. JU (See a pattern here?)
6. If he takes my balance, it's time for ukemi. I'm about to be thrown or kncocked down, and I need to use ukemi to get to a superior position or at least a neutral one.