Wrestling and Karate is still the best!

Freestyler777

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While I may be endangering myself by saying this, I don't believe that 'submission grappling' is that great a martial art. First of all, Competition Judo and Sport Jiu-jitsu are not self-defense methods. Judo is physical education (I train in judo in NYC) and sport jiu-jitsu is a safe way to practice submissions for people who do cage-fighting jiu-jitsu.

I think Karate and Wrestling is fighting ability, and little has changed in the past fifteen years, even with the massive influence of MMA and similar events. I have suffered from 'Royce Gracie Syndrome' for far too long. MMA hasn't changed anything, and it is largely a form of crude showbusiness, not actual combat.

BTW, Chuck Lidell is a great fighter, and there are some great wrestlers involved in MMA, but that still isn't enough to draw me to a sport where two semi-naked men ground n pound each other inside a cage.

Judo was meant to be physical education, a way for people to stay fit and preserve the martial culture of japan.

Brazilian Sport Jiu-jitsu is a variant of Judo, and should not be confused with MMA, which is the original art of the Gracie Family. MMA is just a different name, and sport jiu-jitsu came way later.

Feel free to abuse me at will.
 

terryl965

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I believe everyone is entitle to there opinions aout everything, I can see your point with some of the MMA stuff but I feel it can and could be adevastration to someone in a life or death scenio, my .02 cents here and I'm not a MMA guy.
 
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Freestyler777

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All I am saying is that there is something else besides MMA, it doesn't and shouldn't be the gold standard of self-defense efficacy. Some people think Karate and Aikido is useless, when they are really missing out. And some think (like on other forums that I will not mention) that judo and sport jiu-jitsu is the best self defense. I train in judo and that is not my opinion.

I believe in king Solomon's proverb 'nothing new under the sun'. MMA is simply pankration, and should not be viewed as the only self-defense.

But at least MMA did one good thing: it validated wrestling as a self-defense style. But on the other hand, the poor performance of traditional karate in early MMA left many with the impression that karate doesn't work, which is pure folly.

What am I getting at? I have no idea.
 

terryl965

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I totally agree I get tired of alot of people coming into my school saying but MMA is the best, I have been around long enough to have seen KugFU being tops then Karate and the Akido and them Kenpo and then TKD man every couple of years it is something with a new twist on old variation, I differently see you point.
 
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Freestyler777

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You bring up an interesting point. Fads come and go, and just like kickboxing was huge in the '70s, I'm sure something else will eventually replace MMA as the 'cool thing to do'.
 

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While I may be endangering myself by saying this, I don't believe that 'submission grappling' is that great a martial art. First of all, Competition Judo and Sport Jiu-jitsu are not self-defense methods. Judo is physical education (I train in judo in NYC) and sport jiu-jitsu is a safe way to practice submissions for people who do cage-fighting jiu-jitsu.

I think Karate and Wrestling is fighting ability, and little has changed in the past fifteen years, even with the massive influence of MMA and similar events. I have suffered from 'Royce Gracie Syndrome' for far too long. MMA hasn't changed anything, and it is largely a form of crude showbusiness, not actual combat.

BTW, Chuck Lidell is a great fighter, and there are some great wrestlers involved in MMA, but that still isn't enough to draw me to a sport where two semi-naked men ground n pound each other inside a cage.

Judo was meant to be physical education, a way for people to stay fit and preserve the martial culture of japan.

Brazilian Sport Jiu-jitsu is a variant of Judo, and should not be confused with MMA, which is the original art of the Gracie Family. MMA is just a different name, and sport jiu-jitsu came way later.

Feel free to abuse me at will.

I've been doing a stand up art (Kenpo) alot longer than I've grappled. I think you brought up a good point when you spoke of fads. The 80s saw Ninjutsu and the 90s the UFC. I think that having a grappling background is very important, mostly due to the fact that many people, due to the MMA craze, grapple, so IMHO, its good to know something, even if its just the basics. While I do train submissions, I personally feel that for a scenario outside the ring, its best to work on getting back to your feet and basic ground defense.

Mike
 
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Freestyler777

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I agree with you.

What MMA taught us is that you should have basic wrestling/grappling skills to AVOID the ground. And it is easier to go from wrestling to karate, than first karate and then catch up on wrestling skills(it is still possible though).

My point is, MMA is showbusiness, while karate + wrestling is positive, safe, effective, and beneficial to oneself.
 

Odin

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While I may be endangering myself by saying this, I don't believe that 'submission grappling' is that great a martial art. First of all, Competition Judo and Sport Jiu-jitsu are not self-defense methods. Judo is physical education (I train in judo in NYC) and sport jiu-jitsu is a safe way to practice submissions for people who do cage-fighting jiu-jitsu.

I think Karate and Wrestling is fighting ability, and little has changed in the past fifteen years, even with the massive influence of MMA and similar events. I have suffered from 'Royce Gracie Syndrome' for far too long. MMA hasn't changed anything, and it is largely a form of crude showbusiness, not actual combat.

BTW, Chuck Lidell is a great fighter, and there are some great wrestlers involved in MMA, but that still isn't enough to draw me to a sport where two semi-naked men ground n pound each other inside a cage.

Judo was meant to be physical education, a way for people to stay fit and preserve the martial culture of japan.

Brazilian Sport Jiu-jitsu is a variant of Judo, and should not be confused with MMA, which is the original art of the Gracie Family. MMA is just a different name, and sport jiu-jitsu came way later.

Feel free to abuse me at will.

Just a question could you explain how sport jujitsu, differs from jujitsu?

Im confused by what you are saying in the last couple of lines in your post, is that your opinion of the history of jujitsu and the gracies or is that actual fact?

''that still isn't enough to draw me to a sport where two semi-naked men ground n pound each other inside a cage.''

Thats like saying i dont like watching to men dressed in pajama's compete in what can only be described as a form of fighting 'tag'.

and lastly Karate is fighting ability (!?!?) but Muay thai, boxing and jujitsu isnt??????please explain
 

Odin

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I agree with you.

What MMA taught us is that you should have basic wrestling/grappling skills to AVOID the ground. And it is easier to go from wrestling to karate, than first karate and then catch up on wrestling skills(it is still possible though).

My point is, MMA is showbusiness, while karate + wrestling is positive, safe, effective, and beneficial to oneself.


Did it not just teach you that cross training is the way forward, and relying on one style of fighting is proberly not the best idea.

All styles have weakness, until you address them.
 

Last Fearner

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Feel free to abuse me at will.

Ok! :ultracool

I don't believe that 'submission grappling' is that great a martial art.
"Submission grappling" really isn't a "Martial Art" any more than "blocking," "punching," or "kicking" is a Martial Art. These are skills which are used as part of the self defense training within the Martial Art. However, make no mistake about it. Under certain circumstances, "submission grappling" is very useful in street self defense. I have used it many times myself!

Competition Judo and Sport Jiu-jitsu are not self-defense methods. Judo is physical education (I train in judo in NYC).
"Competition" anything really are not "self-defense methods." They are the sport application of what you learn in self defense. There are rules, and modifications that make it safe, fun, and educational. What we do in competition (and more importantly, while training and preparing to compete) is a huge benefit to over-all self defense skills, since much of what is used in any tournament can be slightly adjusted to work effectively in the street. A tennis player can knock someone out with the swing of their racket, and a baseball player could do even more damage with a bat! My guess is, a guy who trains to hit home-runs in a game, is going to be able to swing the bat faster, harder, and with better accuracy than most people who use it for street-fighting. Sports not useful in self-defense??? Makes no sense to me!

Also, don't make the mistake of lumping all Judo in with the topic of "competition Judo." Those who are trained properly in real Judo, as well as sport Judo, are very deadly and can do major damage in self defense. My Uncle is a 3rd Dan in Judo (trained in the USMC in the 1950s) and I hold a 1st Dan in Judo. Judo itself is a very effective Martial Art. As always, it depends on the practitioner, and the instructor from whom they learned.

MMA hasn't changed anything.... MMA is just a different name.
I agree with you here except that MMA has changed the publics awareness and perception of the Martial Art (good/bad???). All Martial Art knowledge is one truth. Martial Art systems either present the complete truth, or focus on a specific portion. MMA has done nothing new, but piece back together what already existed as one whole in the past, and many claim that this is a new revelation! No, but there is nothing wrong with it, as long as the elements are taught properly to be effective.

I can see your point with some of the MMA stuff but I feel it can and could be a devastation to someone in a life or death scenio.
I agree with you, Master Stoker. All of this can be effective in self defense.

All I am saying is that there is something else besides MMA, it doesn't and shouldn't be the gold standard of self-defense efficacy.
Yes, I agree. MMA should not be viewed as the "gold standard" most superior method of fighting - - but then, neither should anything else. It is all advanced knowledge unique to the Martial Art concept as a whole. Use it properly, and it will be effective.

And some think (like on other forums that I will not mention) that judo and sport jiu-jitsu is the best self defense. I train in judo and that is not my opinion.
The "best" self defense is whatever works at that time. Running away; talking; avoidance; defensive blocking and parrying; counter strikes; throws; grappling; or aggressive, preemptive strikes are all viable options. Judo is one system of training to be prepared to deliver these things quickly and effectively - - and it really works!

I believe in king Solomon's proverb 'nothing new under the sun'.
I absolutely agree with that!!!

You bring up an interesting point. Fads come and go, and just like kickboxing was huge in the '70s, I'm sure something else will eventually replace MMA as the 'cool thing to do'.
Yes, like maybe "Hula-hoop-do."
or perhaps
"Mixed-Brazilian-Jazzer-Taebo-kickbox-wrestling-Sweat'n to the oldies-jitsu"

While I do train submissions, I personally feel that for a scenario outside the ring, its best to work on getting back to your feet and basic ground defense.
I agree 100%

Thats like saying i dont like watching to men dressed in pajama's compete in what can only be described as a form of fighting 'tag'.
I wouldn't want to see men in pajamas playing tag either. :rolleyes:

On the other hand, skilled fighters in Dobok using precisely controlled, powerful kicks and punches to match each others skill is very interesting to me.

I've heard some people call Taekwondo competition "a game of foot-tag," but I venture to guess that these people have never really been "tagged" by a skilled kicker - even in competition. If that's a game of "tag" I think many spectators would not want to play after the first slip of excessive contact!

Like - whoooaaa! :xtrmshock Game's over - - this ain't no fun no more! :lol:

Did it not just teach you that cross training is the way forward, and relying on one style of fighting is proberly not the best idea.

I don't believe in "cross-training" or "Mixed Martial Art." I believe in learning the whole Art, from whomever knows it, or gather the knowledge from multiple instructors who have bits and pieces. Some will interpret that as "cross-training" or "mixed" but there is difference between combining sources to get the whole story, and taking several unrelated concepts and mixing them together. In my opinion, the complete Martial Art is not "mixed" or "crossed" - - it is just "whole."

CM D.J. Eisenhart
 

searcher

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Ok! :ultracool
However, make no mistake about it. Under certain circumstances, "submission grappling" is very useful in street self defense. I have used it many times myself!

When you used it did you intend to make the person "tap out?"

I try to get my students to not force an opponent to tap. I prefer that they take all joint locks to a bone-break. My reasoningis that if youare using it on the street, the other guy is intent on hurting you and you need to make them stop functioning what ever body part you happen tobe locking.
 

Callandor

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Hello, Freestyler. I agree on most of your points but have to disagree on some.

... First of all, Competition Judo and Sport Jiu-jitsu are not self-defense methods. Judo is physical education (I train in judo in NYC) and sport jiu-jitsu is a safe way to practice submissions for people who do cage-fighting jiu-jitsu. ...
Yes, you are right about Competition Judo and Sport Jiu-jitsu. But that is not all there is for Judo and Jiu-jitsu. They could also be taught in a combat oriented manner like what they were originally intended to be. Judo could be taught as physical education for sure (Kano Sensei used to teach PE) but so can Karate be. During College, we had the option to take Karate for PE (but I took Escrima, of course ;) ). As what Last Fearner said: "'Competition' anything really are not 'self-defense methods.'"

...All I am saying is that there is something else besides MMA, it doesn't and shouldn't be the gold standard of self-defense efficacy. Some people think Karate and Aikido is useless, when they are really missing out. And some think (like on other forums that I will not mention) that judo and sport jiu-jitsu is the best self defense. I train in judo and that is not my opinion. ...
I agree that those who think that Karate and Aikido is useless are wrong. I also agree that Judo and Jiu-jitsu are not the best but I do think that they are good - as good as any. And for some personality and body type, better than many.

...But at least MMA did one good thing: it validated wrestling as a self-defense style. But on the other hand, the poor performance of traditional karate in early MMA left many with the impression that karate doesn't work, which is pure folly. ...
The good thing MMA did was opened the eyes of martial artists to a different kind or method of attack - a takedown. Martial artists (of the striking arts variety) always practice defenses against punches and kicks, not much against takedowns. That accounted for the poor performance of karate and other striking arts in the early days of MMA - not because they are inferior (you are right: the impression that karate doesn't work is pure folly). They were just not ready for a new kind of attack. Now that strikers are familiar with the takedowns and are ready for it, you could see that they are capable of mixing it up with the grapplers.

... Feel free to abuse me at will.
That won't be necessary in an intelligent discussion :)

<said a lot of juicy stuff here>
Totally agree. :ultracool
 

Hand Sword

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Concerning topics like this I would just like to say that any style or system can be made to work if the person has that kind of mindset. None are better than any other, and there are, in fact, more similarities among them than differences.
 

Last Fearner

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When you used it did you intend to make the person "tap out?"

I try to get my students to not force an opponent to tap. I prefer that they take all joint locks to a bone-break. My reasoningis that if youare using it on the street, the other guy is intent on hurting you and you need to make them stop functioning what ever body part you happen tobe locking.

I can understand what you are saying here, searcher, and I agree that many street situations are very serious and potentially dangerous, thus it is wise to be prepared and train to take it to that step of damaging the attacker.

I also think that each of us learns how to read a situation. I have been in many where the person probably wanted to hurt me, but I didn't give them the chance. Once they were disarmed, or brought to the ground under control, they basically went limp. I have restrained people as a police officer (don't want brutality charges), as a security guard, and as a private citizen to hold a violent person for the police.

"Tapping out" is a form of communication in training. The first time I put a pain hold (choke, pressure point or joint lock) on a new student, they know it hurts, but I have to tell them to tap out as a submission signal. In the street, the person just screams "stop, stop! Your going to break my arm! When they stop struggling, and I assess the situation as not needing to break a bone - - I don't. I will either hold them for the police, or let them go with a warning. If they are foolish enough to attack again, they don't get another chance.

When I am attacked by a minor who isn't really capable of doing me great damage (some are), I don't feel the need to break their bones. If an adult is drunk, or just a bad fighter, I will usually just restrain them till they calm down. However, I absolutely agree that you must train to be prepared to break the bone, choke them out, or do whatever you determine is warranted in each situation. It all depends on how aggressive the person really is, and how much of a threat they pose.

CM D.J. Eisenhart
 

Odin

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I wouldn't want to see men in pajamas playing tag either. :rolleyes:

On the other hand, skilled fighters in Dobok using precisely controlled, powerful kicks and punches to match each others skill is very interesting to me.

I've heard some people call Taekwondo competition "a game of foot-tag," but I venture to guess that these people have never really been "tagged" by a skilled kicker - even in competition. If that's a game of "tag" I think many spectators would not want to play after the first slip of excessive contact!

Like - whoooaaa! :xtrmshock Game's over - - this ain't no fun no more! :lol:

[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']I totally agree with you, the same way I like to see too too athletes compete in MMA, rather then the description that the thread starter labeled it.[/FONT]

I don't believe in "cross-training" or "Mixed Martial Art." I believe in learning the whole Art, from whomever knows it, or gather the knowledge from multiple instructors who have bits and pieces. Some will interpret that as "cross-training" or "mixed" but there is difference between combining sources to get the whole story, and taking several unrelated concepts and mixing them together. In my opinion, the complete Martial Art is not "mixed" or "crossed" - - it is just "whole."

[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']I have noticed that a lot of TMA's don’t seem to be able to grasp the concept behind MMA training, you'll find that a lot of MMA gyms employ a straight Jujitsu trainer, a straight muay thai fighter aswel as those that have a lot of experience with putting the whole thing together.[/FONT]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']For some unknown reason people assume that it is just some guy that knows abit of this and that.[/FONT]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']you'll find also that the gym wont just hold an ''MMA' class but over the course of the week hold a jujitsu and wrestling and a thai boxing class mixed in with classes designed to teach you how to put the whole thing together.[/FONT]
 

Last Fearner

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I have noticed that a lot of TMA's don’t seem to be able to grasp the concept behind MMA training

For me, personally, it is not a matter of not grasping the concept. I understand what it is that is taking place very well, I just think the term "mixed" is misleading and was a poor choice of words when they first labeled this sport movement to train thoroughly, challenge other fighters, test your skills, and improve areas where you are weak (not a new concept really, but gaining popularity in the media). The general public tends thinking that "Mixed Martial Art" contains something different, extra, or better than what people like myself do - - which is not true.


you'll find that a lot of MMA gyms employ a straight Jujitsu trainer, a straight muay thai fighter aswel as those that have a lot of experience with putting the whole thing together.
These are the key words for me: "putting the whole thing together." The way I view the Martial Art is as a "Whole thing." I study the whole thing through Taekwondo (with sub-areas of Hapkido, Hoshinsul, Yudo, etc). It is a package program that covers every aspect of unarmed combat (striking, throwing and holding). That is the way it should be (in my opinion), no matter what your system or school is called.

Some people in the past, have trained in systems that limit their versatility, and have had to seek out multiple sources to re-assemble the "whole thing," therefore they have developed the notion that it is several different things "mixed together" - - thus, the term "Mixed Martial Art." They seek out other systems that have what they don't have and "mix" it together. Gathering complete knowledge from all sources is the right thing to do, but if you already have it in one source, then it is not necessary.

An analogy would be to view the whole entire "Martial Art" knowledge as a giant encyclopedia of every technique that a person could possibly do to win a fight. As people discovered this knowledge over time, they have picked it apart, and chosen to focus on portions of the whole, like ripping pages out of that encyclopedia, and becoming proficient in what is on that particular page. Later in time, new generations come along and start piecing the pages back together to make the encyclopedia whole again.

Instead of acknowledging the "old, divided encyclopedia" brought back together again, they call it a mixed book of knowledge ("Mixed Martial Art") taking the best from various sources. Well, those sources took what they have from the original whole, so it is nothing new, but it is the most effective way to fight. We should be well versed, and be so superior within an area of expertise than your opponent, that it does not matter what they know.

We all know that a fight can be on your feet apart, on your feet tied-up, or on the ground. Any smart fighter is going to know how to function well in each of those areas, but knows that there will be fighters that are better in one or the other than they are. The idea is to be able to fend off the type of attack your opponent is good at, and direct the action to the area that you are better in.

I know that there are many Taekwondo students and Black Belts who could not execute a throw properly if their life depended on it. Many are lost on the ground, except to try and strike in unfamiliar grappling situations (which can work). However, this is not indicative of ALL Taekwondo practitioners, and it is done without "mixing," but rather constantly testing, improving, and adjusting your known skills in all three areas of striking, holding, and throwing, and observing what others do so that you can adapt to modern changes. I do this without every having an expert jujitsu, boxer, Muay Thai, or Judo guy come in my school to teach anything.

Perhaps some day, everyone will see the Martial Art as "whole" again, and acknowledge that some people just don't care to explore all aspects of unarmed combat, and might not excel in certain areas. We don't have to mix it, we can just study all of it, and perfect it as one art - - the "Martial Art." And they all held hands a sang kumbaya! :ultracool

CM D.J. Eisenhart
 

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While I may be endangering myself by saying this, I don't believe that 'submission grappling' is that great a martial art.

What techniques are you classifying as 'submission grappling'?

And why are those techniques 'not great' for self defence?

I think Karate and Wrestling is fighting ability, and little has changed in the past fifteen years, even with the massive influence of MMA and similar events.

Fair enough. Why limit yourself though?
 

Odin

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For me, personally, it is not a matter of not grasping the concept. I understand what it is that is taking place very well, I just think the term "mixed" is misleading and was a poor choice of words when they first labeled this sport movement to train thoroughly, challenge other fighters, test your skills, and improve areas where you are weak (not a new concept really, but gaining popularity in the media). The general public tends thinking that "Mixed Martial Art" contains something different, extra, or better than what people like myself do - - which is not true.



These are the key words for me: "putting the whole thing together." The way I view the Martial Art is as a "Whole thing." I study the whole thing through Taekwondo (with sub-areas of Hapkido, Hoshinsul, Yudo, etc). It is a package program that covers every aspect of unarmed combat (striking, throwing and holding). That is the way it should be (in my opinion), no matter what your system or school is called.

Some people in the past, have trained in systems that limit their versatility, and have had to seek out multiple sources to re-assemble the "whole thing," therefore they have developed the notion that it is several different things "mixed together" - - thus, the term "Mixed Martial Art." They seek out other systems that have what they don't have and "mix" it together. Gathering complete knowledge from all sources is the right thing to do, but if you already have it in one source, then it is not necessary.

An analogy would be to view the whole entire "Martial Art" knowledge as a giant encyclopedia of every technique that a person could possibly do to win a fight. As people discovered this knowledge over time, they have picked it apart, and chosen to focus on portions of the whole, like ripping pages out of that encyclopedia, and becoming proficient in what is on that particular page. Later in time, new generations come along and start piecing the pages back together to make the encyclopedia whole again.

Instead of acknowledging the "old, divided encyclopedia" brought back together again, they call it a mixed book of knowledge ("Mixed Martial Art") taking the best from various sources. Well, those sources took what they have from the original whole, so it is nothing new, but it is the most effective way to fight. We should be well versed, and be so superior within an area of expertise than your opponent, that it does not matter what they know.

We all know that a fight can be on your feet apart, on your feet tied-up, or on the ground. Any smart fighter is going to know how to function well in each of those areas, but knows that there will be fighters that are better in one or the other than they are. The idea is to be able to fend off the type of attack your opponent is good at, and direct the action to the area that you are better in.

I know that there are many Taekwondo students and Black Belts who could not execute a throw properly if their life depended on it. Many are lost on the ground, except to try and strike in unfamiliar grappling situations (which can work). However, this is not indicative of ALL Taekwondo practitioners, and it is done without "mixing," but rather constantly testing, improving, and adjusting your known skills in all three areas of striking, holding, and throwing, and observing what others do so that you can adapt to modern changes. I do this without every having an expert jujitsu, boxer, Muay Thai, or Judo guy come in my school to teach anything.

Perhaps some day, everyone will see the Martial Art as "whole" again, and acknowledge that some people just don't care to explore all aspects of unarmed combat, and might not excel in certain areas. We don't have to mix it, we can just study all of it, and perfect it as one art - - the "Martial Art." And they all held hands a sang kumbaya! :ultracool

CM D.J. Eisenhart


I think it may be a really good idea for you to arrange to have a veiwing at an MMA gym to have a look at whats going on.
It would be a lot better for you to grasp then me trying to explain it.
Give it a go!
 

bigfootsquatch

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"Your study should be broad and diversified. Do not limit yourself. This principle can be compared to our stance, which moves easily in many different directions." --Unknown, from and early manuscript called The Five Virtues of Tai Chi.
 

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Each style hass it's own weakness and strengths. IMO...get well rooted in one style and suppliment it with others. Even a good street brawler with no formal training can be a tough adversary. You are only one punch away from being knocked out no matter how good you are. But any training would be beneficial in a fight. Wrestling is great no doubt, but most people wear clothing on the street (something that could hinder a wrestler). Judo is great too, but what if the person isn't wearing anything but shorts (no clothing to grab onto)? My style TKD, would last only as long as I stay on my feet. Aikido will help you keep calm and relaxed. Everything has its strong points. As far as two half naked men in a cage, last time I went to a wrestling meet they weren't dressed in anything but skin tight singlets. Personally, I would rather wear shorts than a singlet.
 
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