Common expressions that are wrong....

[tkdroamer]

A while back, I did some research on that. There are studies that show high-repetition practice isn’t optimal. Rather, low or moderate reps, separated by breaks. I’ll see if I can dig up the most direct study. (NOTE: The study shows quite low repetitions as optimal, but IIRC was for a fairly simple task, compared to some MA tasks.)

There is definitely a point where information overload is counterproductive.

 

[GojuTommy]

Have a magazine somewhere that talks about this.
They say 15minutes of fry fire 4 times a day is better than an hour at the range once a week.

Whoops meant 4 days a week

 

[Dirty Dog1]

Have a magazine somewhere that talks about this.
They say 15minutes of fry fire 4 times a day is better than an hour at the range once a week.

So 7 hours of practice is better than 1? Again, who'da thunk it?

 

[Steve]

So 7 hours of practice is better than 1? Again, who'da thunk it?

Not necessarily. There’s a point of diminishing returns.

 

[Kung Fu Wang102]

"All threads in the forum are open for discussion."

I disagree! Sometime OP may start a thread, but if you make comment on it. The OP will never respond to it. Unfortunately we don't have "information only" category.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf102]

Not necessarily. There’s a point of diminishing returns.

Even then, it's often still slightly better. Diminishing return, not disappearing return.

 

[Steve]

Even then, it's often still slightly better. Diminishing return, not disappearing return.

I should have been more thoughtful with my prose. To be more specific, in my experience, there is a point where some practice activities become counterproductive. More is not always better. I was using lazy language.

 

[Wing Woo Gar37]

I should have been more thoughtful with my prose. To be more specific, in my experience, there is a point where some practice activities become counterproductive. More is not always better. I was using lazy language.

Your lazy language is of a far higher quality than my most earnest attempts.

 

[Gyakuto102]

Much of the preliminary research on acquisition of skills was performed during WW2. Where they were trying to optimise the rate at which trainees could acquire morse code etc skills for the war effort. They found that 6-13 repetitions was optimal with more providing little advantage.

This is a good, albeit academic book on the subject

 

[Gyakuto102]

Even then, it's often still slightly better. Diminishing return, not disappearing return.

You assume there’s a linear relationship in skill acquisition. Most biological systems work on a natural log (loge) so I have no reason to doubt skill acquisition follows this too. Skill acquisition will drop very rapidly (loge) with repetitions.

 

[Gyakuto102]

The other factor is that of ‘frustration closing the gates of learning’. After a few repetitions, the rate of acquisition decreases due to neural ‘overloading’ (it takes time for new neural pathways to be made…synapses, developing or being pruned). When you start fumbling and not making progress you become irritated and frustrated and this can directly inhibit the psychological process of learning. Thus when you feel this happening, you stop the repetitions, take a break and go and do something unrelated, perhaps before coming back to the task in hand.

Rate of rise of frustration and the time required away from the skill being learned will vary from person-to-person. When things don’t go the way I want, I get frustrated very quickly. When I was an undergraduate student, I’d plough forcefully through reading science papers thinking ‘I have to know this…I must worker harder!’ It was counterproductive and I forgot most of the information. As a PhD candidate, I realised that I didn’t need to cram the detail in my head and read science papers almost casually, out in the park, on the bus, on the toilet (where I often do my best thinking) for fun and, ironically, the details stuck in my head of their own accord! I had disinhibited the retention of details by not being obsessed with their acquisition and frustrated by it.

It’s hard to ‘not be bothered’ and thus disinhibit your learning when you really love a subject, but that’s the paradox we have to live with…

 

[GojuTommy]

So 7 hours of practice is better than 1? Again, who'da thunk it?

I quoted and corrected since it wouldn’t let me edit.
Meant 15 minutes a day 4 times a week

 

[GojuTommy]

The other factor is that of ‘frustration closing the gates of learning’. After a few repetitions, the rate of acquisition decreases due to neural ‘overloading’ (it takes time for new neural pathways to be made…synapses, developing or being pruned). When you start fumbling and not making progress you become irritated and frustrated and this can directly inhibit the psychological process of learning. Thus when you feel this happening, you stop the repetitions, take a break and go and do something unrelated, perhaps before coming back to the task in hand.

Rate of rise of frustration and the time required away from the skill being learned will vary from person-to-person. When things don’t go the way I want, I get frustrated very quickly. When I was an undergraduate student, I’d plough forcefully through reading science papers thinking ‘I have to know this…I must worker harder!’ It was counterproductive and I forgot most of the information. As a PhD candidate, I realised that I didn’t need to cram the detail in my head and read science papers almost casually, out in the park, on the bus, on the toilet (where I often do my best thinking) for fun and, ironically, the details stuck in my head of their own accord! I had disinhibited the retention of details by not being obsessed with their acquisition and frustrated by it.

It’s hard to ‘not be bothered’ and thus disinhibit your learning when you really love a subject, but that’s the paradox we have to live with…

This is probably also why so few students at any level or age retain so little of the information they’re taught in class.

 

[Gyakuto102]

I quoted and corrected since it wouldn’t let me edit.
Meant 15 minutes a day 4 times a week

This is one of the reasons I’m having a home dojo built so I can get my gear on, go in and do 20-60 minutes or whatever, everyday. A little bit and often intuitively feels more efficient and the research is backing this up.

I try and keep a guitar out on a stand so I can grab it and do a run of scales or other motor exercise, but I’m so prissy about my guitars, I tend to wipe and put them away, much to the detriment of my playing skills!

 

[Gyakuto102]

This is probably also why so few students at any level or age retain so little of the information they’re taught in class.

It’s rehearsal too, though. As martial artists we know the importance of revisiting the basics at every opportunity as it keeps them fresh in out mind/body. Degree candidates probably don’t rehearse their notes after their exams

Lack rehearsal means I can’t remember my favourite Shakespeare Sonnet 18……hang on…

Shall I compare thee to a summer’s day?
Thou art more lovely and more temperate.
Rough winds do shake the darling buds of May,
And summer’s lease hath all too short a date.
Sometime too hot the eye of heaven shines,
And often is his gold complexion dimmed;
And every fair from fair sometime declines…

It gets a bit hazy after that. That’s not bad recall really!

 

[GojuTommy]

This is one of the reasons I’m having a home dojo built so I can get my gear on, go in and do 20-60 minutes or whatever, everyday. A little bit and often intuitively feels more efficient and the research is backing this up.

I try and keep a guitar out on a stand so I can grab it and do a run of scales or other motor exercise, but I’m so prissy about my guitars, I tend to wipe and put them away, much to the detriment of my playing skills!

Not to mention short sessions are less intimidating for us lazy folk.

A lot easier to say I’m going to to run back and forth in the home gym/dojo for 12 minutes and then two a couple sets on the bench than it is to say I’m going to drive 10-15 minutes to a gym/dojo and work out for an hour, and then drive 10-15 minutes back home.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf102]

I quoted and corrected since it wouldn’t let me edit.
Meant 15 minutes a day 4 times a week

That makes more sense as an argument. And fits with what I know about learning in general. Spending a few minutes at a time learning something, with breaks in between, does more than trying all at once and then nothing til the next week.

 

[Gyakuto102]

Not to mention short sessions are less intimidating for us lazy folk.

A lot easier to say I’m going to to run back and forth in the home gym/dojo for 12 minutes and then two a couple sets on the bench than it is to say I’m going to drive 10-15 minutes to a gym/dojo and work out for an hour, and then drive 10-15 minutes back home.

I imagine the 2 hour training session, once or maybe twice a week was devised to fit in with student’s work/life and the teacher’s convenience.

 

[Gyakuto102]

That makes more sense as an argument. And fits with what I know about learning in general. Spending a few minutes at a time learning something, with breaks in between, does more than trying all at once and then nothing til the next week.

This is an oft-used graphical representation of how learning/revision works for cognitive tasks. It’s only an assumption it’s similar for motor tasks.

 

[Gerry Seymour9]

That makes more sense as an argument. And fits with what I know about learning in general. Spending a few minutes at a time learning something, with breaks in between, does more than trying all at once and then nothing til the next week.

Which is part of the reason it's so maddening when students obviously don't do anything to practice outside of class.