Comedians and free speech

[Bill Mattocks]

Or, as child the person itself is not famous...only by affiliation. Does the same principal of fair game also apply to your and my kid?

Yes, it must.

Doesn't mean I would not go right around the bend if someone said something despicable about a disabled child of mine, and perhaps arrange for him to take his teeth home in his pocket. However, I'd fully expect to suffer the consequences for it, and I would not expect the law to stop him running his horrible mouth.

Here in Detroit, we've got a fine young lady; she likes to say horrible things to dying children. She's awful. And she's legal to do so. I want her to shut up; but I don't want the law to shut her up. Make sense?

http://www.truecrimereport.com/2010/10/jennifer_lyn_petkov_taunts_7-y.php

http://www.myfoxdetroit.com/dpp/news/the_edge/dying-girl-taunted-by-neighbors-in-trenton

 

[K-man]

When a government finally says "No, that's going to far and we're not going to allow it," they drive a stake in the ground and THAT is where freedom ends.

Many may applaud that mark in the ground and consider it just and appropriate.

However, it has been my experience that once having taken away rights, government do not give them back voluntarily under most circumstances. In other words, that leash is not going to get longer...only shorter.

Censor a gasbag or a hate-monger today, and tomorrow it will be something YOU find innocuous or humorous or mere truthfulness that gets censored. We always find the things WE say to be entirely reasonable; it's those OTHER people who are insane and ought to be made to shut up.

The glory of the US Constitution is that it offends everyone equally.

The prime example of this would be what is happening in Iran. There you now don't have any freedom of speech, freedom of association, freedom of religion or feminine rights. Under the Shar you had corruption but you did have rights. Under the Islamic Republic you have no rights and I bet there's still corruption.

George Orwell had it right when he wrote ''Animal Farm" and "Nineteen Eighty Four".

 

[Blade96]

I wasnt fussy about our comedian, Rick Mercer's show 'Talking to Americans' I found it a bit offensive cause he would ask silly questions about Canada, and the americans wouldnt know the difference and would answer, and then laugh at their answers. I didnt think it was very funny to make fun of people's ignorance. But - its not illegal.

 

[billc]

this link takes you to one of the funniest comedy bits by Sam Kinison, entitiled, "world hunger." Mr. Kinison has a solution.

http://bighollywood.breitbart.com/j...n-have-survived-in-todays-brave-new-pc-world/

 

[Bob Hubbard]

One of Sam's best ideas.

That and the idea that comedians should attend medical school so they could make medically accurate jokes......

 

[MA-Caver]

Lenny Bruce, Dick Gregory, Red Foxx, Richard Pryor, George Carlin, Sam Kinnison, Eddie Murphy, Carlos Mencia, The Blue Collar Comedians (White, Foxworthy, et al), Kings Of Comedy, Robin Williams, Chris Rock, Martin Lawrence ... all those and hundreds more have crossed the line at one time or another with offensive material. Quite a number were censored and yet they kept on because they did find an audience.
Carlos Mencia actually puts out a disclaimer that warns people that they MAY be offended by his jokes/monologues. He even pokes fun at the mentally retarded. He does so presumably because he feels it's okay because one of his siblings is a down syndrome kid.

If you're going to be offended by something then don't listen. If you didn't anticipate YOUR line being crossed and it was then as it was said, switch the channel or get out of the auditorium/arena where-ever. If a movie offends you don't watch it. If a book offends you don't read it. If someone speaking (comedian or whomever) offends you, walk away and don't listen. Do not try to impede someone else's right to listen/read/watch... and especially enjoy what they are NOT offended by.

There are comedians whose material I have not approved of (not necessarily offended by it just I thought it was in bad taste and wasn't funny IMO... repeat: In MY Opinion!). I walked out of 40 Year Old Virgin in the theater because I did not find it funny. The rest of the audience was laughing their collective asses off. Well I didn't try to STOP the screening... I just got up and walked out. It can be THAT simple.
Don't think a comedy I'm watching on TV is funny? Switch the channel or hit the power button on the remote. Someone telling an off colored joke in the break room at my work... I don't like it then I get up and walk out of the room. I don't go running to the manager and report it because it's NOT that BIG of a deal!... For me anyway.

I know a host of off colored and potentially offensive jokes... but (again) as it was mentioned... it's common sense, common courtesy to know who would enjoy it and who wouldn't. Even if they're bad "groaners" I'll still be selective as to whom I will tell them to.
The difference is that a professional comedian can't worry about that because it's their material, they worked long and hard to get to a spot where they can be in front of thousands of people as compared to when they started out they probably at least were in front of a dozen or so. They didn't get to Madison Square Garden by being careful not to offend anyone they got there because they had their material and knew that enough people weren't offended and paid their ticket prices to hear it. By the time they get big enough to warrant a night at the garden enough people should/would been familiar with their style and content to know what to expect and they should bear the responsibility of their decision to attend the show or not knowing full well what the comedian would be talking about. If they're going to get worried about being offended then they shouldn't have bought the tickets.

 

[granfire]

Yes, it must.

Doesn't mean I would not go right around the bend if someone said something despicable about a disabled child of mine, and perhaps arrange for him to take his teeth home in his pocket. However, I'd fully expect to suffer the consequences for it, and I would not expect the law to stop him running his horrible mouth.

Here in Detroit, we've got a fine young lady; she likes to say horrible things to dying children. She's awful. And she's legal to do so. I want her to shut up; but I don't want the law to shut her up. Make sense?

http://www.truecrimereport.com/2010/10/jennifer_lyn_petkov_taunts_7-y.php

http://www.myfoxdetroit.com/dpp/news/the_edge/dying-girl-taunted-by-neighbors-in-trenton

caught me in a snare there, Mister!

No, the kids should be off limits
yes, there can't be a law enforcing it.

or was it yes, no kids, and no, no laws...

and sadly, there can't be amnesty for giving them 5 across the lips either...

 

[Chris Parker]

Comedy is where it can get incredibly grey, really. I've been known to essentially live at our 3 week long Comedy Festival, and have gotten to know (to a degree) quite a number of comedians as a result. One explained to me at one point the essence of what comedy actually is: it's a disjoint, a conflict, awkwardness in the assumed reality. For those that go for the more "shock" comedy, that means that they have to push a little further eternally, as it becomes the assumed reality that they will say offensive things, so they have to take that to their limit (and sometime beyond).

Those that do it well will often conflict two things next to each other. The Doug Anthony Allstars, when playing at the Barcelona Olympics, began starting their shows with the following song, mainly due to it's lovely melody. Of course, the Spanish people were happily swaying, but they said every blond head in the audience was doubled over.... er, small language warning here, by the way, so I'm not embedding it.

That was followed by this (more conflict - same rules apply, no embedding, rather naughty boys talking):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HaeF1khifSQ&feature=related

Of course, the following is just part of our television broadcasts (Paul as part of a comedy debate). Might embed this one.... actually, just looked at the title as it was embedded, and maybe not. Still, enjoy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sj0zcCUdg-c&feature=related

The reason for that being the source of comedy is because our laughter responce is, anthropologically speaking, a fear responce. So when there's something that we're unsure of, we respond with laughter.

When it comes to the issue of free speach as mentioned here, the simple fact is that Franky has the right to say what he wants... but he needs to be prepared to accept the consequences of such words and actions. Whether that means guest invites to programmes dries up, he suddenly has trouble booking gigs, others don't want to be associated with him, or Jordan and Peter decide that he's worth suing for emotional distress on behalf of Jordan's son, then that is what he would need to accept. You can't just hide behind "Well, it's my right to say it!". Yes, you can say it, but realise that others are allowed to react to it in ways that you might not like...

So, freedom to say it, yes. Really, what he's done is just follow the rules of comedy to it's natural extension, although he may have left off the "make sure it's actually funny, not just obscene" rule (hey, just for fun, try to find the film "The Aristocrats" for more on how to make something utterly offensive, and still remain a joke... just). That rule applies to all comedy, by the way, not just the "shock" forms (that's really what a punchline is, an unexpected, or suprise ending to an established scenario). But that does not mean that his saying it shouldn't have consequences.

PS One more, just because I love this one, it fits the example of contrast of conflict providing humour, and I can feel safe embedding this one....

[yt]WqX2aqXbwB0&feature[/yt]

 

[Archangel M]

The jesters job was to parody the King, but Im betting that if he went to far one day his head would be decorating the battlements.

 

[Tez3]

The television critics have been giving Frankie Boyles show a big thumbs down, not because of the Jordan/Harvey jokes but because they say while he's a good stand up comedian he can't do sketches etc, his strength is in pithy comments not in writing scenes. The show was deeply unfunny they said so I think even without those jokes he has shot himself in the foot.

I find Billy Connelly very funny, I don't take any notice of the language because he's only speaking as many other Glaswegians do. I adore Stephen Fry's very clever humour, Dylan Moran makes me laugh too, Bill Bailey I went to see live and he's brilliant. TBH Frankie Boyle's humour I can hear any day, the squaddie humour is sick and twisted but funny. I think his worse crime was not being funny, not that it was sick, it just wasn't funny. People will forgive a lot if they laugh, there was just no mileage in a joke about a disabled son raping his mother.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

The jesters job was to parody the King, but Im betting that if he went to far one day his head would be decorating the battlements.

Now you get into interesting territory. For a variety of reasons, comedy is linked with death. Comedians and death make mockery of plans and persons, high-born and low. In a Tarot deck, Death is sometimes seen wearing motley; because he gets the last laugh. It is said in ancient times that Roman Emperors employed a slave whose job it was to follow the Emperor and whisper always in his ear, "Memento Mori," or "Remember that death awaits you."

It is a cruel trick nature plays; that we each have self-awareness and a strong desire to survive, while knowing all along that we will not. No matter how we struggle in our lives, whether we succeed or fail, whether we work for our money or have it given to us, whether we are good or bad people, we will all, universally, die.

To the question, "Is nothing sacred?" the madcap replies, "No, there is nothing sacred. So we may as well laugh at everything."

 

[Tez3]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Sommers

Will Sommers probably the best known fool who was no fool.

 

[granfire]

The jesters job was to parody the King, but Im betting that if he went to far one day his head would be decorating the battlements.

Actually, the jester's job was to find a way to tell the truth without losing his head.

 

[granfire]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-869183917758574879#

not offensive but ouch....

 

[Cryozombie]

we will all, universally, die.

Speak for yourself, Bill. *I* plan on living forever.

 

[MJS]

How far do you think should comedians should go to make people laugh? Is there a point where free speech should be limited and what they say 'censored'?

The case that's bringing this to mind is a programme w had on the other night. A comedian called Frankie Boyle, known here for his very near to the knuckle comments many in bad taste but admittedly funny who said something that has a lot of people in uproar on both sides of the argument.

You probably won't know the people concerned so I'll give a few details, Jordan (Katie Price) is a glamour model here ( that's topless) and is known for her OTT looks and behaviour and she does seek the limelight a lot, she was married to Peter Andre an Aussie singer, while married they did a lot of reality tv programmes so both are in the public eye and they love it. Jordan has a very disabled son by a previous relationship to whom as far as we can see she is a very good mother. A while back Peter and Jordan were divorced, very much in the public eye again.

Boyle made a joke about their divorce saying they were fighting over custody of the disabled child, Harvey born in 2002, but one of them will lose and have to take care of him, then he went on to make comments about Harvey raping his mother. It's more this last comment that has people upset.

Both Jordan and Peter, agreeing for once, have made complaints saying while they are fair game, a child isn't and especially being disabled so comments about him raping his mother are really inappropriate.

The arguments on one side are that people know what Boyle's humour is like and shouldn't watch his show if they are going to be offended, others are saying he's stepped over the lineas some topics and people are out of bounds for comedy. Others are saying it's free speech and while we might not like it we can't shut him up. It's not the first time the comedian has made comments that upset people. It is his 'thing' to say shocking things.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-jokes-Cumbria-shootings-ONE-DAY-tragedy.html


comments?

I'll use the late, great George Carlin as an example. I have seen the man a few times in person, as well as having many of his shows on tape. He would gear his routines around real life things. An example would be making fun of the standard airplane safety lectures. It was great, because every thing he said, was true, if ya really stopped to think about it.

Now, he was also known for his language which included many racial comments. Yet looking in his audience, there were people who were black, Jewish, etc., all laughing. Were they offended? Maybe, maybe not, but IMO, I think its important, especially when listening to someone like George, that you take it with a grain of salt. Like I said, I'm sure some were highly offended. I'm half Italian, half Polish, yet I'm not offended at all, when someone makes a Polish joke. OTOH, I'm sure some would be.

But, comedians will continue to exist and will continue to make comments that are boarderline and possibly over the top. I say ignore it, take it with a grain of salt, or do what the ones in the crowd do..laugh with it.

 

[Nomad]

I recently heard a definition of political correctness as people believing that they have the right to never be offended.

I believe everyone has the right to be offended by someone else's speech or actions. While this inevitably leads to conflict, I'm with Bill on keeping governments well away from these issues, even though they love to meddle in this sort of thing.