Comedians and free speech

[Tez3]

How far do you think should comedians should go to make people laugh? Is there a point where free speech should be limited and what they say 'censored'?

The case that's bringing this to mind is a programme w had on the other night. A comedian called Frankie Boyle, known here for his very near to the knuckle comments many in bad taste but admittedly funny who said something that has a lot of people in uproar on both sides of the argument.

You probably won't know the people concerned so I'll give a few details, Jordan (Katie Price) is a glamour model here ( that's topless) and is known for her OTT looks and behaviour and she does seek the limelight a lot, she was married to Peter Andre an Aussie singer, while married they did a lot of reality tv programmes so both are in the public eye and they love it. Jordan has a very disabled son by a previous relationship to whom as far as we can see she is a very good mother. A while back Peter and Jordan were divorced, very much in the public eye again.

Boyle made a joke about their divorce saying they were fighting over custody of the disabled child, Harvey born in 2002, but one of them will lose and have to take care of him, then he went on to make comments about Harvey raping his mother. It's more this last comment that has people upset.

Both Jordan and Peter, agreeing for once, have made complaints saying while they are fair game, a child isn't and especially being disabled so comments about him raping his mother are really inappropriate.

The arguments on one side are that people know what Boyle's humour is like and shouldn't watch his show if they are going to be offended, others are saying he's stepped over the lineas some topics and people are out of bounds for comedy. Others are saying it's free speech and while we might not like it we can't shut him up. It's not the first time the comedian has made comments that upset people. It is his 'thing' to say shocking things.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-jokes-Cumbria-shootings-ONE-DAY-tragedy.html


comments?

 

[Bob Hubbard]

There is freedom of speech, and there is good taste and judgment.

FOS says I can say whatever I want with very few exceptions. (Like shouting fire in a theater for example).
Joking about rape, child molestation, incest, and so forth is allowable.

But just because something is allowed, doesn't mean it's proper, in good taste, or should be said.

I'll defend his right to say incredibly tasteless, asinine and stupid things, while at the same time disapproving of what he says.

Freedom of speech allows for horrible things to be said, things which must be allowed to be said, lest we someday find we've removed all speech from acceptance.

 

[crushing]

We had something similar in the US when a late night talk show comedian made a joke about a famous baseball player raping a famous politician's fourteen year old daughter. Sure, it was disgusting and many people called to have the comedian fired. I'm of the opinion that if you don't like the humor, change the channel or find something else to do.

 

[Sukerkin]

I have to agree with my friends above. It's a vile thing to say and I do indeed think it is offensive, insulting and distasteful.

But free speach and democracy is a bit like air. Sometimes you breathe in something that makes you choke but start restricting your inhalation and pretty soon you suffocate.

 

[WC_lun]

He'll keep saying stuff in poor taste as long as there are people who enjoy his poor taste. If government tried to censor him, even more people would seek out his "comedy."

 

[Tez3]

In our case the government would keep out of it, it would be the television companies that would take the show/person off the air. Of course some companies would sign him up! Commercial interests would win out here, if more people watched him so that more people watched the ads he'd stay on, if people switch off he'll be sacked. That could be the best form of democracy, the people speak with their on/off button.

I think you have to be careful who you annoy with comments like this, upsetting Jordan would be a big mistake she'll probably hunt him down and eat him alive. Never underestimate a mother on the hunt for the man who said things about her son!

Boyle is actually funny even when his stuff is in a bad taste but he seems to have gone somewhere off in the wrong direction. I find what he said in very bad taste and not in the least funny, his job is to be funny so I think I'd perhaps sack him or give him a break until he found his funny stuff again. He will probably want to hide too, I wouldn't want Jordan/Katie Price after me! she remarried now to Alex Reid an MMA fighter, he's tough but she has him under her thumb.

 

[CoryKS]

It's not really a censorship issue. Comedians know when they've gone too far. It's called 'bombing'. A professional comedian isn't successful because he crosses the line, he's successful because he knows the difference between where the line appears to be and where it really is. Making fun of disabled children actually crosses the line for most people, and if he knows his trade he should have known that.

 

[Tez3]

It's not really a censorship issue. Comedians know when they've gone too far. It's called 'bombing'. A professional comedian isn't successful because he crosses the line, he's successful because he knows the difference between where the line appears to be and where it really is. Making fun of disabled children actually crosses the line for most people, and if he knows his trade he should have known that.

Very true.

The first thing people who complained about his show were saying is that he should be 'banned'. It' quite a common thing here, shouting 'he should be banned' whatever the problem is. I'm not sure if they had thought it through, banned from where and by who? 'Off with his head'?

I think what will happen is that he will be quietly dropped and other shows etc won't be looking to book him. The 'life' of comedians does seem to be quite short, I've heard before one comedian saying that television uses up material in one show that would last him a year on the road, perhaps that's why Boyle resorted to the comments, he has simply dried up. I've never seen him on a proper show of his own before usually it's in comic quizes etc where he doesn't have to come up with all the material.

 

[Archangel M]

"freedom of speech" in the US only means that the government cant get involved. If non-government entities want to protest, pull ad. money or call for Lettermans firing, thats not a "freedom of speech" issue.

 

[Tez3]

It seems those that are phoning and complaining to the broadcasting authorities want Boyle 'banned' and those that don't say it's a matter of free speech which is odd as we don't really have any rights to free speech as Americans know it. We have no constitution to say we have rights, we probably have rights under the EU or court of Human Rights though.

the latest on it
http://news.aol.co.uk/main-news/story/comics-gag-about-price-son-probed/1456086

 

[Steve]

How far do you think should comedians should go to make people laugh? Is there a point where free speech should be limited and what they say 'censored'?

The case that's bringing this to mind is a programme w had on the other night. A comedian called Frankie Boyle, known here for his very near to the knuckle comments many in bad taste but admittedly funny who said something that has a lot of people in uproar on both sides of the argument.

You probably won't know the people concerned so I'll give a few details, Jordan (Katie Price) is a glamour model here ( that's topless) and is known for her OTT looks and behaviour and she does seek the limelight a lot, she was married to Peter Andre an Aussie singer, while married they did a lot of reality tv programmes so both are in the public eye and they love it. Jordan has a very disabled son by a previous relationship to whom as far as we can see she is a very good mother. A while back Peter and Jordan were divorced, very much in the public eye again.

Boyle made a joke about their divorce saying they were fighting over custody of the disabled child, Harvey born in 2002, but one of them will lose and have to take care of him, then he went on to make comments about Harvey raping his mother. It's more this last comment that has people upset.

Both Jordan and Peter, agreeing for once, have made complaints saying while they are fair game, a child isn't and especially being disabled so comments about him raping his mother are really inappropriate.

The arguments on one side are that people know what Boyle's humour is like and shouldn't watch his show if they are going to be offended, others are saying he's stepped over the lineas some topics and people are out of bounds for comedy. Others are saying it's free speech and while we might not like it we can't shut him up. It's not the first time the comedian has made comments that upset people. It is his 'thing' to say shocking things.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-jokes-Cumbria-shootings-ONE-DAY-tragedy.html


comments?

I think that the point of comedy is to be funny, and that's the genius of good comedians... particularly sharp witted, provocative ones. While you'll never really know if you're approaching the line, you DEFINITELY know it when you've gone one step over it.

Personally, it's not a matter of whether they should be censored. They're as entitled to speak their minds and tell their jokes as anyone. Of course, it's up to everyone else to decide whether to give these guys a public venue for their routines. If you aren't funny, or have in some way made a pariah of yourself, you aren't going to be booked for a gig. You won't make money, and you will find that your public voice is much, much less significant than it once was.

Banning a person or taking steps to institutionally censor him or her is unnecessary. It's like when people post here who are annoying or immature. If they aren't breaking rules, they shouldn't really be banned. But there are many more subtle social pressures that can be brought to bear in order to either get them to behave or to go away on their own. They can be ignored through the ignore feature. They can just be ignored informally. OR they can just get enough feedback through posts to realize that they're not behaving.

Society at large works much the same way.

I'll also just add that "freedom of speech" and censorship are related, but not the same. Whether or what to censor is a much more gray discussion, not as cut and dry as the constitutional amendment.

 

[K-man]

How far do you think should comedians should go to make people laugh? Is there a point where free speech should be limited and what they say 'censored'?

As has been pointed out, there is a point where material changes from clever to bad taste and finally offensive. The problem is, the boundaries are different for everyone. For example Billy Connelly is mostly outrageously funny but I personally find his language so offensive that I wouldn't go out of my way to see him. Other comedians use material that is politically incorrect like "Did you hear the one about the Englishman, the Scotsman and the Irishman?" One would be portrayed as normal, one as frugal and one as ... , well you get the drift. Then you have the 'blonde' jokes that the feminists get up in arms about or the religeous jokes that I can't even say who gets upset about.
And, there are the ethnic jokes. We used to have many jokes about people with disabilities. They all hold a mirror up to society and sometimes society doesn't like what is sees.
Personally, I think jokes are like cartoons. They go beyond normal life to 'out there'. The rules of censorship are different to mainstream. They can make some people uncomfortable and if you make the wrong people uncomfortable, look out.
Tell me any joke you like. If I find if funny I'll laugh :rofl:, if I find it clever, with the little twist, I'll smile

and if I find it tasteless or offensive I'll move on. :shrug:

 

[Nomad]

IMO, he's free to say anything he wants, no matter how hateful and disgusting. Now, the owners and sponsors of programs are just as free to decide whether or not they want someone like this on their shows and/or representing their products. As are the consumers in deciding whether to watch any programs he's on, or attending his concerts, and by letting the owners and sponsors know how they feel about this type of speech.

Rather than banning someone because what they said is "wrong", ignore him and let him suffer financially for his poor choice of words and lack of humor.

Right now he's probably loving the extra publicity... after all, virtually no one here knew his name before this, but I can find reports in several papers about the incident (like this one) Any publicity is good publicity, right?

 

[Bill Mattocks]

As with the other thread on Phred Phelps and Phamily, freedoms are defined not in the center, but at the outer edges. When a government finally says "No, that's going to far and we're not going to allow it," they drive a stake in the ground and THAT is where freedom ends.

Many may applaud that mark in the ground and consider it just and appropriate.

However, it has been my experience that once having taken away rights, government do not give them back voluntarily under most circumstances. In other words, that leash is not going to get longer...only shorter.

Censor a gasbag or a hate-monger today, and tomorrow it will be something YOU find innocuous or humorous or mere truthfulness that gets censored. We always find the things WE say to be entirely reasonable; it's those OTHER people who are insane and ought to be made to shut up.

The glory of the US Constitution is that it offends everyone equally.

 

[Tez3]

There is a third small group of people who are blaming Jordan for being a publicty hunter and allowing her children to be on television so much, they say it makes them a target for things like this! That's curious I think.

 

[granfire]

There is a third small group of people who are blaming Jordan for being a publicty hunter and allowing her children to be on television so much, they say it makes them a target for things like this! That's curious I think.

I mean, she is a bimbo (albeit successful) but no, the kids ought to be off limits because they didn't ask to be affiliated with her.
Bad enough the celeb kids can't go anywhere without a camera shoved in their little faces...

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I mean, she is a bimbo (albeit successful) but no, the kids ought to be off limits because they didn't ask to be affiliated with her.
Bad enough the celeb kids can't go anywhere without a camera shoved in their little faces...

Anything that is forbidden to be said can eventually be made to apply to you.

People who are OK with that frustrate me. They think they can have the muzzle placed on speech that 'goes too far' and never ever think that THEY might one day be the one who is considered to be 'going too far'.

We demand freedom until we get it; then we demand that it be taken away in the name of this, that, or the other. In this case, please, government, come take our freedom away because a disabled child is being insulted by a comedian. If something isn't done, we'll all be grossly offended! Please put a stop to this sort of thing, by whatever means necessary!

 

[granfire]

Anything that is forbidden to be said can eventually be made to apply to you.

People who are OK with that frustrate me. They think they can have the muzzle placed on speech that 'goes too far' and never ever think that THEY might one day be the one who is considered to be 'going too far'.

We demand freedom until we get it; then we demand that it be taken away in the name of this, that, or the other. In this case, please, government, come take our freedom away because a disabled child is being insulted by a comedian. If something isn't done, we'll all be grossly offended! Please put a stop to this sort of thing, by whatever means necessary!

well, the explanation proclaiming kids fair game hides behind the freedom of free speech to cover poor choices.
Standing in front of minors is more an appell to common decency vs a cry for legal restriction. because you can does not mean you should.

Or, as child the person itself is not famous...only by affiliation. Does the same principal of fair game also apply to your and my kid?

 

[billc]

http://bighollywood.breitbart.com/t...on-me-new-media-is-comedys-salvation-from-pc/

Talks about Sam Kinison and the new pc comedy that is around.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

The comic, or anyone can say whatever they want. That's Freedom of Speech.

I don't have to listen to it, support it, or them. That's Freedom too.

I don't want any government agency telling me, or you, what you can or cannot say.

But you and I can say "sorry mate, but your comments offend me, so I refuse to listen to you. Talk all you want to yourself, I'll be over there listening to something I do like.".