"classic" martial art vs "modern" martial arts

[isshinryuronin37 37]

I think you do more kata than you realise. I think everyone does.

I'm guessing 100,000 full kata during my time in TMA.

 

[drop bear147 22]

Indulge me.

Let's define terms. What do you consider pressure testing, and how it works?

Changed my mind. I don't have the mental bandwidth relitigating what Chris has already spent more time than he needed to on the matter.

You pressure test something to see if it works rather than assuming it works.

So you do literally the opposite of assume that if its in the schools syllabus it must be there for a reason. And you go find out for yourself if it works.

You do literally the opposite of assume that someone must have pressure tested it.

 

[Haruhiko]

You pressure test something to see if it works rather than assuming it works.

So you do literally the opposite of assume that if its in the schools syllabus it must be there for a reason. And you go find out for yourself if it works.

You do literally the opposite of assume that someone must have pressure tested it.

Then I'm assuming I know more about the school and its kata, philosophy, teachings, pedagogical sensibilities than generations of students and masters.

Sounds like a very naïve thing to do.

 

[isshinryuronin37 37]

I'm guessing 100,000 full kata during my time in TMA.

I'm revising this to 85,000 as I didn't fully factor in some years of retirement.

Then I'm assuming I know more about the school and its kata, philosophy, teachings, pedagogical sensibilities than generations of students and masters.

Sounds like a very naïve thing to do.

Kata degraded over the generations due to repurposing in response to new goals, changes by modern teachers who didn't realize the deeper applications and by natural drift, to name a few reasons. Today's kata are often substantially different from when first developed. All this points to the need to explore kata, delve into their history and pressure test the techniques as they currently exist. If they don't pass the test, the application being used is wrong and further study and testing is needed. The old traditional kata were pressure tested by authentic warriors who knew well what real combat was. As developed, kata was combat training. Modern karate separated the art into kata, kihon and kumite whereas in the early days they were entwined and fully synergistic.

 

[Haruhiko]

Kata degraded over the generations due to repurposing in response to new goals, changes by modern teachers who didn't realize the deeper applications and by natural drift, to name a few reasons.

Today's kata are often substantially different from when first developed. All this points to the need to explore kata, delve into their history and pressure test the techniques as they currently exist. If they don't pass the test, the application being used is wrong and further study and testing is needed.

Your claims follow this logic:

A. Kata have degraded

B. Because A is true ipso facto, it stands to reason that the root cause were school "goals" and modern teachers

C. Despite A being true, A is also false because;

D.

The old traditional kata were pressure tested by authentic warriors who knew well what real combat was.

So unless the kata are used IRL, today, by "authentic warriors" who know what "real combat" is, the kata are... what? Not pressure tested? Inauthentic? How long do we need to wait until the last "authentic warrior" dies before revisiting the kata just to make sure, you know, make ABSOLUTELY SURE, it's still pressure tested?

Because that's why we all do martial arts to begin with, that benchmark for pressure testing. If it's not pressure tested then *ptooh*, it's for the rubbish.

I want my pressure NOW and I want it TESTED (which few in this thread agree on, lesser few agreeing it's an MMA/UFC tough guy buzzword flung around because they're too preoccupied watching the latest "jitz" in a conspicuously arranged octogone surrounded by wirin--- I digress)...

 

[drop bear147 22]

Then I'm assuming I know more about the school and its kata, philosophy, teachings, pedagogical sensibilities than generations of students and masters.

Sounds like a very naïve thing to do.

You should be able to challenge dogma with pressure testing.

Evidence should sway belief

This should not rely on your status within an organisation.

 

[Gyakuto148 157]

It still puzzles me why people question kata pressure testing... Like, they wouldn't be in the school's syllabus if they weren't found to be useful... under pressure... after being tested...

I’m afraid that’s an example of a logical fallacy known as ‘post hoc ergo propter hoc’!

 

[drop bear147 22]

I’m afraid that’s an example of a logical fallacy known as ‘post hoc ergo propter hoc’!

Correlation doesn't equal causation.

For dummies like me who only use Latin for swear words.

 

[Haruhiko]

I’m afraid that’s an example of a logical fallacy known as ‘post hoc ergo propter hoc’!

That’s not post hoc reasoning.

Post hoc ergo propter hoc is Latin for "after this, therefore because of this". It refers to the mistake of assuming that because one event (B) follows another (A), that A caused B.

I wasn’t making a claim about sequence.

My claim is:

If a kata is retained in a combative tradition’s syllabus, it is reasonable to infer it was considered useful within that tradition.

That’s a conditional inference (K → U), not a sequential claim. Post hoc concerns the latter.

If you think syllabus inclusion doesn’t imply prior functional value, that’s the argument to make. But labeling this post hoc misstates the structure of my claim.

 

[drop bear147 22]

Correlation doesn't equal causation is pretty close though.

Because then you could say. Just because Kata is contained in a Combative traditions syllabus. Doesn't mean you can infer it has worth.

 

[Prince_Alarming84 20]

*whistles innocently*

 

[Haruhiko]

*whistles innocently*

Spoiler: An exceptionally profane Latin insult by none other than Catullus - NSFW if you intend to read the entire insult as recorded

It wasn't fully published until the 20th century due to its profanity...

You can read more about it here.

 

[Prince_Alarming84 20]

Bene lusit

 

[isshinryuronin37 37]

I want my pressure NOW and I want it TESTED (which few in this thread agree on,

It seemed (not sure) like you were taking issue with my post. My position is clear:

the need to explore kata, delve into their history and pressure test the techniques as they currently exist. If they don't pass the test, the application being used is wrong and further study and testing is needed.

I think we agree on this point?

 

[Wing Woo Gar82 5]

Correlation doesn't equal causation is pretty close though.

Because then you could say. Just because Kata is contained in a Combative traditions syllabus. Doesn't mean you can infer it has worth.

By this logic, the obverse must be true as well.

 

[Wing Woo Gar82 5]

Training methodology is just that. Whether that training method is the most efficient or effective might be at the crux of this discussion. The goals of said methodologies can vary even if they appear to run parallel initially. IMO there is no one size fits all for martial arts training, otherwise there would be no discussion as to the worth of any one methodology and less debate over competition. Value of a product can likely be found to varying degrees depending on the goals and abilities of the individual.

 

[Gyakuto148 157]

Correlation doesn't equal causation is pretty close though.

Because then you could say. Just because Kata is contained in a Combative traditions syllabus. Doesn't mean you can infer it has worth.

Who is this posting and what have you done to drop bear? I’m calling Interpol!

 

[Gyakuto148 157]

That’s not post hoc reasoning.

Post hoc ergo propter hoc is Latin for "after this, therefore because of this". It refers to the mistake of assuming that because one event (B) follows another (A), that A caused B.

I wasn’t making a claim about sequence.

My claim is:

If a kata is retained in a combative tradition’s syllabus, it is reasonable to infer it was considered useful within that tradition.

That’s a conditional inference (K → U), not a sequential claim. Post hoc concerns the latter.

If you think syllabus inclusion doesn’t imply prior functional value, that’s the argument to make. But labeling this post hoc misstates the structure of my claim.

It must be post hoc ergo propter hoc because I chose to say it is

 

[drop bear147 22]

Who is this posting and what have you done to drop bear? I’m calling Interpol!

 

[Wing Woo Gar82 5]

View attachment 33851

Phew! What a relief!