clasic non sporty tkd

[Manny]

Maybe some silly questions here, but want to know your point of view.

The way I do sparring (kyorugi) inside dojang is the old way or perhaps my own way, I really don't bounce around at all, I do not do fancy footwork (cause I don't know how to do it), I do some feints once in a while but my way of doing sparring is very linear using my back leg to kick using peet chagui and dolyo chagui and when possible following these kicks a ti-chagui (turning back kick) or a mom dolyo chagui ( turning hook kick), some times when I feel right I use a hook kick with the lead foot and without letting my foot touch the floor I change it too a round kick something like the kick that uses Bill Wallace feinting with a hook kick to then slap with the instep. Maybe because my size I am not too quick so I use my guard to block kicks and try to evade them, in close I use my fists. I am not to quick but like to use a volley of kicks to try to nail my oponent AND like to use the counters alot.

The way I do sparring has nothing to do with the olimpic way sparring, so, can I call my style clasic tkd or calling it some kind of do karate? I know it's an old fashion way of do kyorugi and in some cases I have had some troubles fighting a guy who has sport olimpic style training but I feel fine sparring this way, because I am used to.

Manny

 

[dancingalone]

Sport = footwork along with bouncing. Doesn't matter whether it is TKD or karate. Below is a Shotokan kumite match that I find rather appalling, but I imagine the active TKD competition people on MT will also find much to flinch at. Regardless, I think the idea to take out of it, is that if you compete in point-scored matches based on kicking and punching, you're going to be bouncing and working a lot of modern footwork skills.

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[ralphmcpherson]

As far as sparring goes manny, I believe your objectives change the way you will spar. If someone is racking up points they will obviously spar differently to someone whose sole objective is to knock their opponent down as quickly as possible. Neither is better or worse than the other, just different objectives, like t20 cricket compared to test cricket, theres still a bat and a ball and fielders but completely different objectives. We spar using knock down rules but one time we had an in house competition using points method and the competitors had no idea what to do, they basically stood there looking confused, it was quite funny actually. I guess your sparring will adapt to rules you spar by.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Maybe some silly questions here, but want to know your point of view.

The way I do sparring (kyorugi) inside dojang is the old way or perhaps my own way, I really don't bounce around at all, I do not do fancy footwork (cause I don't know how to do it), I do some feints once in a while but my way of doing sparring is very linear using my back leg to kick using peet chagui and dolyo chagui and when possible following these kicks a ti-chagui (turning back kick) or a mom dolyo chagui ( turning hook kick), some times when I feel right I use a hook kick with the lead foot and without letting my foot touch the floor I change it too a round kick something like the kick that uses Bill Wallace feinting with a hook kick to then slap with the instep. Maybe because my size I am not too quick so I use my guard to block kicks and try to evade them, in close I use my fists. I am not to quick but like to use a volley of kicks to try to nail my oponent AND like to use the counters alot.

The way I do sparring has nothing to do with the olimpic way sparring, so, can I call my style clasic tkd or calling it some kind of do karate? I know it's an old fashion way of do kyorugi and in some cases I have had some troubles fighting a guy who has sport olimpic style training but I feel fine sparring this way, because I am used to.

Manny

Really, to answer your question you would have to tell us what rule set is being used. If you are sparring under WTF rules, then you are sparring under the same rule set used in the Olympics. Nothing that you describe in your description of what you do when you spar would be out of place or against the rules in WTF sparring. Also, what you describe sounds like sport to me. The fact that your style and strategy may not be competitive in tournaments doesn't make it non sporty.

At that level, you aren't going to see drastic differences in sparring style; Olympic taekwondoists are the top .1% of WTF taekwondo and they're all using what amounts to the same toolbox with only minor variations. It really comes down to who can use those tools the best.

As far as your classic comment, if the WTF rule set were rock music, it would be getting played on Classic Rock stations, not eighties, nineties, or 2000's. The WTF rule set has been in place since the early seventies with few major alterations made since that time. Athlete strategies within the rule set have evolved over the past four decades, in large part due to the evolution of training and fitness.

Like every other sport, modern athletes have major advantages in regards to available training methods and physically have eclipsed their seventies, eighties, and nineties era counterparts in every way. Training methods, dietary science, and sports medicine have advanced radically since the seventies, and Olympic athletes have access to the very best in those areas, plus access to the best instructors. Also, like every other Olympian, they pretty much spend their time focused on a single goal and are afforded the time to do so. You and I, on the other hand, have day jobs and non-TKD obligations.

So, if your sparring rules are whatever rule set was used in the fifties and sixties, then I would call it kwan era, not classic.

And just because it is pre-KKW doesn't make it non sporty; If there are sparring rules, then you cannot call it 'non sporty,' regardless of how you may see it, so unless you and your training partners are actually fighting without any rules whatsoever and without regard to safety or legal limits, then I wouldn't call it non sporty either.

Here is a question for you: why are you concerned about whether what you do falls into the category of sport or not? So long as you are enjoying yourself (which seems to be the case), keep on training as you are.

 

[Manny]

We spar using knock down rules but one time we had an in house competition using points method and the competitors had no idea what to do, they basically stood there looking confused, it was quite funny actually.

That's exactly what hapenned to me when I did Kenpo Karate, in that dojo they practiced point karate and when it was my turn to engage with them I did trying to knock down my partner but he won the points because he used a light back fist (just a little slap) in the top of my headgear (helmet) and that was a point or used a side kick with no power at all but it scored.

Manny

 

[puunui]

Sport = footwork along with bouncing. Doesn't matter whether it is TKD or karate. Below is a Shotokan kumite match that I find rather appalling, but I imagine the active TKD competition people on MT will also find much to flinch at. Regardless, I think the idea to take out of it, is that if you compete in point-scored matches based on kicking and punching, you're going to be bouncing and working a lot of modern footwork skills.

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Looks like they borrow a lot from taekwondo, at least the surface techniques.

As for rules, it really doesn't matter, in my opinion. Skill is skill and a good practitioner will easily adapt to the rules. I told this story before but I will tell it again. I had a student who joined because he took kajukenbo for a year and was getting beat up during sparring during every class. He was 5'2" and everyone was taller than him and more experienced than he was. He remained a white belt during that entire year, and he felt like he would never get promoted.

He came to me and explained his situation. I told him to come to every class, train hard on his off days, and he and I would spar for fifteen minutes after every class, and after three months he would prevail over the majority of the other students, no matter what their rank. I also told him not to go to the kajukenbo class during this time but instead just concentrate on what we were doing. I had him focus particularly on his steps and stance, and back leg roundhouse to the body and leg and gave him all sorts of things to do for homework.

After three months, he went back to his kajukenbo class and beat everyone there, including the senior black belts, except for one senior who was an ex golden gloves champion who had a one foot height advantage. There was face punching and other stuff allowed, but his movement and timing with roundhouse kick frustrated everyone. He used his steps, as well as proper distancing and timing to avoid the head shots and then moved in for his own scores, with people complaining that he hit "too hard". They were actually afraid of him, a 5'2" 115 pound high school kid. He instantly got promoted or double promoted, but quit kajukenbo and went on to become a black belt under me.

When I hear opinions regarding the superiority of face punching against taekwondoin, or for that matter the ineffectiveness of taekwondo competition sparring methods in a self defense situation, I immediately think in my mind that the person voicing said opinions does not understand nor has experienced taekwondo competition training, either in their own personal development or in the alternative, faced or trained with someone who does have an understanding. The concept of stance, steps and roundhouse kick developed primarily by the jidokwan, while simple, is in my opinion, the work of a genius.

 

[Manny]

I am trying to be light on my feet (like Ali and sting like a bee LOL), but seriusly I am trying to be ligther on my feet and bouncing a little, doing change of direction on my atacks and do more feints, don't know if I will succeed because as Punnui wrote lines above if I want to have some tkd footwork I need to train this with a capable person and quite frankly I don't have the time to do this.

My sambonim in the dojang he has in Mexico City has two sons who trains their students in olimpic sparring, both teachers are very good but Mexico City is about 450 Mks from the city a live.

I will need to improve by myself and try to be not so stiff when doiing sparring.

Manny

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Puuini's theory has me a little confused. It makes me wonder why when tkd guys move into kickboxing they do some boxing training to compliment their tkd. Surely the addition of face punching and a different ruleset would require some outside training. By this theory Aaron cook could just swap over to the ufc, and his superior footwork etcwould more than account for the ruleset change. Not to mention that at his elite level he could just "adapt" to the change of ruleset. I seriously question the kajukenbo club where a guy getting his *** kicked regularly can go learn a bit of tkd and go back to kajukenbo and kick everyone's ***. No good black belts at that club Im guessing.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Puuini's theory has me a little confused. It makes me wonder why when tkd guys move into kickboxing they do some boxing training to compliment their tkd. Surely the addition of face punching and a different ruleset would require some outside training. By this theory Aaron cook could just swap over to the ufc, and his superior footwork etcwould more than account for the ruleset change. Not to mention that at his elite level he could just "adapt" to the change of ruleset.

So, where did he say that they could adapt with no preparation? Part of what makes elite athletes elite is the preparation.

I seriously question the kajukenbo club where a guy getting his *** kicked regularly can go learn a bit of tkd and go back to kajukenbo and kick everyone's ***. No good black belts at that club Im guessing.

Or it may mean that they simply underestimated the guy, given that they had been stomping on him previously and he was using a strategy with which they were unfamiliar. It could also mean that maybe the kajukenbo guys were not training as hard; the kid that Puunui trained, he required that he attended every class (presumably five a week) plus hard practice outside of class.

Could be that being in high school, the kid was in better shape and with three months of preparation and hard training, was simply able to out move his opponents. Puunui mentioned that he trained him heavily on stance and footwork and on rear leg roundhouse kicks (intense training in a small group of techniques pays dividends a lot more quickly than training a broader number of techniques with less intensity).

Sounds like he simply trained at a much higher level than his counterparts for three months and came back and surprised them.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I cant disagree with any of that Daniel. Most of that were my thoughts exactly. I think the main reason he went back and kicked their asses wa that they under estimated him (as you mentioned) and his training intensity increased (also as you mentioned). Get someone who doesnt train to face punch or defend them and put them against "good" black belts from an art that focuses on these things and then its a different a story.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I cant disagree with any of that Daniel. Most of that were my thoughts exactly. I think the main reason he went back and kicked their asses wa that they under estimated him (as you mentioned) and his training intensity increased (also as you mentioned).

Also, the student in question already had Kajukenbo training, and though he hadn't advanced, he had more than just a little prep work and already knew how the other students fought. Thus, bringing something new to the table, he represented an unknown while his opponents were known quantities to him.

Get someone who doesnt train to face punch or defend them and put them against "good" black belts from an art that focuses on these things and then its a different a story.

The implication of your statement seems to be (correct me if I am wrong) that KKW/WTF taekwondoin do not train to face punch or to defend against head level attacks and would, thus, lose to a "good black belt" from an art that focuses on head punches and defending against them.

I would like to point out that KKW taekwondoin do train in executing facial strikes with the hands and high line defenses (against both feet and hands). While the WTF rule set does not allow face punches (Kyokushin doesn't either), the pumse do include facial punches. In addition to that, pretty much every school that I have trained at or visited did have partnered training in that area that was in addition to pumse. While the tournament rules may not include it, KKW/WTF taekwondoin are not unfamiliar with head level hand strikes.

In any case, if you can manage distance better than your opponent, it doesn't matter all that much which particular striking art he's trained in.

The principles of being an effective striker are pretty much the same from art to art. A handsy fighter who can manage distance well can negate the advantage of a kicker who cannot, and vice-versa. Even a grappler can be handled with good distance management, though generally it is harder, especially if the grappler is really good or the striker has never fought a grappler.

But ultimately, he who controls the distance controls the fight.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I am trying to be light on my feet (like Ali and sting like a bee LOL), but seriusly I am trying to be ligther on my feet and bouncing a little, doing change of direction on my atacks and do more feints, don't know if I will succeed because as Punnui wrote lines above if I want to have some tkd footwork I need to train this with a capable person and quite frankly I don't have the time to do this.

My sambonim in the dojang he has in Mexico City has two sons who trains their students in olimpic sparring, both teachers are very good but Mexico City is about 450 Mks from the city a live.

I will need to improve by myself and try to be not so stiff when doiing sparring.

Manny

The more relaxed you can be, the more fluid you can be.

As for getting lighter on your feet without bouncing (bouncing doesn't make one light on their feet; it just means that they're bouncing), one thing that may help is to try keeping your feet in contact with the floor as you step or lift them only slightly (depending on the surface of your mats).

Keep your weight evenly distributed so that you are not too heavy on one foot or the other. By keeping your feet in contact with the floor, you will actually have less wasted motion and will have fewer tells because you won't bob up and down as you step (I don't mean bouncing; that is something else). Keeping your weight evenly distributed allows you to extend the lead foot and press forward with the rear, which will use gravity to aid you.

Keep your steps small unless you are lunging. If you are stepping with large motions, you will have wasted motion and will telegraph your intentions because you will have an up/down motion as you move. Keep your heels raised slightly as well, as you can glide more easily when using the balls of your feet.

Hope that helps!

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Just a question Daniel, in your experence (obviously you are in a different country to me), what percentage of black belt kkw tkdoin have a good grasp on punching? Im not knocking kkw tkd, but any of my mates who are kkw black belts have extremely limited skills when it comes to punching. They are awesome kickers though.

 

[Archtkd]

I am trying to be light on my feet (like Ali and sting like a bee LOL), but seriusly I am trying to be ligther on my feet and bouncing a little, doing change of direction on my atacks and do more feints, don't know if I will succeed because as Punnui wrote lines above if I want to have some tkd footwork I need to train this with a capable person and quite frankly I don't have the time to do this.

My sambonim in the dojang he has in Mexico City has two sons who trains their students in olimpic sparring, both teachers are very good but Mexico City is about 450 Mks from the city a live.

I will need to improve by myself and try to be not so stiff when doiing sparring.

Manny

Manny hit the rope often and hit it hard. Good rope work will help you develop stamina and strength for footwork.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Just a question Daniel, in your experence (obviously you are in a different country to me), what percentage of black belt kkw tkdoin have a good grasp on punching? Im not knocking kkw tkd, but any of my mates who are kkw black belts have extremely limited skills when it comes to punching. They are awesome kickers though.

Can't speak of national percentages, and given the size and population density of the US, you'll probably get different answers from state to state or from region to region within a state.

But in my own personal experience and observation, schools where yudanja have a poor grasp on punching, they also have a poor grasp on everything else; in other words, it is a lousy school.

I also suppose that my answer may differ depending on what you mean by 'a good grasp on punching.' Most that I know personally can deliver solid punches and other hand techniques, both in kyukpah, pumse, and against a resisting partner, but would probably need a goodly amount of prep work if they wanted to box.

 

[Manny]

Can't speak of national percentages, and given the size and population density of the US, you'll probably get different answers from state to state or from region to region within a state.

But in my own personal experience and observation, schools where yudanja have a poor grasp on punching, they also have a poor grasp on everything else; in other words, it is a lousy school.

I also suppose that my answer may differ depending on what you mean by 'a good grasp on punching.' Most that I know personally can deliver solid punches and other hand techniques, both in kyukpah, pumse, and against a resisting partner, but would probably need a goodly amount of prep work if they wanted to box.

We don't use punches to the head when sparring because WTF rules set, we use punches to the hogu but not ofthen we concentrate in kicks and concentrate in the distance where kicks are good, yes maybe in a clich we usa punches but we don't use the punches as a primary weapon.

However as Mr.Sullivan says I use punches to any part of the bidy including the head/face/neck area in self defense techs, one steps and offcourse in kyumpa (board breaking) and in pommsae and other stuff inside TKD.

Maybe I am not as quite as good as a boxer player, or maybe I am not as strong in my punches like the kyokusin players but I Know if need it I can deliver a good blow with fist or open hand.

Manny

 

[Marcy Shoberg]

I just started reading a book called "Bounce" (has nothing to do with tkd). It explains how certain types of cross training are drastically more beneficial than others for certain sports. Something like if you practice table tennis with the wall closer behind you you get faster, but if you practice with a larger than normal table another type of beneficial change happens in your skills. Anyway, I'm thinking that maybe something about training in taekwondo accidentally improved whatever kajukembo skill was lacking in the person mentioned above. It could be possible that, for many people, a few months of taekwondo would have no effect on their kajukembo skills; but, for this particular one person, whatever he was lacking in kajukembo was something that his brain was forced to develop a subconcious understanding of while he learned to play taekwondo.