Chum Kiu question

Shannow

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Hi all,

I've been reading the forums for a little while now but don't post very much.

I have a quick question regarding the Wing Tsun lineage of the Chum Kiu. I have Leung Ting's book on the subject and during the first section, it says that after the 3 times pie-jarn you go to shang fook sau - both palms facing the floor. Then they turn into tan sau when the pak sau hits the elbow.

But in class, with one of the lowest instructors, he said the we go straight to tan sau. Now I will ask a higher grade instructor when im in class again but I was wondering if anyone else is in the leung ting lineage which way they perform it.

I had heard rumours that LT's books contain deliberate mistakes?

Anyway, thanks for taking the time read.
 

geezer

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Yes, LT has deliberately put some bits of mis-information and left key details out in some of his books. In both wooden dummy books (the old gold-colored one written with Yip Chun and the more recently released blue one). For example, the numbering of the movements and final kicking sequence are different from the way he teaches. If you read the introduction of the second book on the dummy, he openly admits doing this. Other variations in the forms arose because of changes made over the years. If you look at LT's original Wing Tsun Kuen book or at the youtube clips of him doing Chum Kiu the way he did it in the early 80's, you will see that there have been a number of changes over time. LT discusses some of these such as the kicking methods used in his little paperback book on the subject. I assume that is the book you are referring to?

Anyway, I first learned Chum Kiu the way it's depicted in the first edition of the hardback text Wing Tsun Kuen back in 1980. Later, I was taught newer versions. I believe the last version I learned was the same as in the little paperback book (I haven't looked at that book for a while). And, yes, to anwer the original question, I was taught to complete the three pie-jarn movements, then snap my arms forward into a double downward-palm fook-sau. The left fook sau rolls palm-upward into tan-sau at the same time as the right hand circles over and across to make the pak-sau (reverse the order when repeating the sequence to the right side). Going from pie-jarn/lan-sau directly to a double tan-sau doesn't make sense to me... especially considering the applications. See what your senior instructor says and post back to let us know.

BTW I must offer the disclaimer that I am no longer associated with the WT organization in any way, and do not know what changes have been made since I severed my association with WT back at the end of 2007. However, I did previously hold the rank of 3rd level Technician/Sifu and was a direct student of LT, so I have some legitimate background in his system.
 

yak sao

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The way I was taught is fook first, then pak/tan as described by geezer....things do change however. I last saw LT perform the set in 2000.
 

izeqb

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Hi Shannow...

The way I've been thought is like you describe. From Pai-Jarn to "chum-kiu-fook".

However, Chum Kiu is a much more fluid form, than SNT, so some of this stuff happens really fast... Not that you need to perform the form fast. Just that the movements are more fluid.

It's like the bongsau in the very last section of the form, just before the chainpunches, you don't see that one either :)
 
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Shannow

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Hi all thanks for your replies!

I went to class last night and the instructor was mistaken, Sifu showed me that from double pai jarn/lan sau, you keep your elbows in and move the palms out for double shang fook sau. :)

Just need to check these things! :)

Thanks again all.
 
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