long pole form

yak sao

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I've been hitting the pole form pretty good of late. When you look at the pole form alongside the Knife set, it is obviously much shorter in length.
Do you think that the pole form, as we know it from the yip man lineages, was actually only the first section of what was once a longer form?
 

mook jong man

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It's possible , because the pole techniques were introduced by a monk from another style were they not?So maybe the original form was a lot longer before it was "Wing Chunerized" and streamlined down into the basic techniques we have today.
 
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yak sao

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True. But I'm talking even after the Wingchunerization of the pole.
Do you think, Yip Man, being the reluctant teacher so many people say he was, decided that the first section was good enough?
Was the form yippified....since we're making up terms here?

Not saying the rest of the form was flashier, by no means, or no less streamlined...simply longer with a few more variants of the
6 1/2 points.
 

mook jong man

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True. But I'm talking even after the Wingchunerization of the pole.Do you think, Yip Man, being the reluctant teacher so many people say he was, decided that the first section was good enough?Was the form yippified....since we're making up terms here?Not saying the rest of the form was flashier, by no means, or no less streamlined...simply longer with a few more variants of the 6 1/2 points.
Ok I get you now , I guess we will probably never know if he left stuff out of the form.I suppose we will have to trust his judgement that if he did leave stuff out , then it must have been surplus to requirements.
 

Eric_H

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Welp, Chun Wa Shun's family has a 6 and 1/2 point long and 3 and 1/2 point short pole.
TWC/Leung Bik has a 6 and 1/2 point pole. Maybe more?
Chi Sim has a 6 and 1/2 point pole.

GM Yip supposedly learned all 3, some have said it maps exactly to the opening of a chi sim form.

A minimalist as always, he probably just taught what he thought was necessary.
 

cwk

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In our lineage of Cho Gar we practice a long form that is done with a shorter pole, apparently this is a hei ban form but I'm not sure if it is exclusively wing chun as there were lots of good stuff that came from the melting pot of the opera boats . Also we have our version of the 6.5 point pole and also a 6.5 point pole 13 spear form.
As for the yip man form coming from a an older, longer form, I couldn't say.
 

zepedawingchun

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With a 9 foot and 13 foot long piece of wood, there is only so much you can do with them. Plus having to deal with the weight of the pole. I would assume any form would not be very long to begin with (number of movements) because of those 2 factors alone.
 

geezer

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I've been hitting the pole form pretty good of late. When you look at the pole form alongside the Knife set, it is obviously much shorter in length.
Do you think that the pole form, as we know it from the yip man lineages, was actually only the first section of what was once a longer form?

Yak, as you know our WT version of the pole form is one of the shortest I've seen with only about 28 movements. I also believe it is very authentic and functional... a true expression of the Yip Man WC/WT/VT "minimalism" Eric referred to. Most of the longer versions I've seen either just repeat sequences or else have other stuff that looks like it was added on from other sources. The TWC sets I've seen on Youtube and elsewhere seem to have a lot of added-on stuff. I must disagree with Eric on this in that I don't think this can be traced back to Leung Bic. I think Leung Bic's contribution was of an entirely different nature and I don't think it's especially evident in the TWC branch, but that's a topic for another thread.

BTW if you adjust the opening of the WT form to get 27 movements, and repeat it to the left and right twice for a total of four times you end up with the perfect Buddhist number of 108 movements! I actually used to practice it that way.
 
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yak sao

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Yak, as you know our WT version of the pole form is one of the shortest I've seen with only about 28 movements. I also believe it is very authentic and functional... a true expression of the Yip Man WC/WT/VT "minimalism" Eric referred to. Most of the longer versions I've seen either just repeat sequences or else have other stuff that looks like it was added on from other sources. The TWC sets I've seen on Youtube and elsewhere seem to have a lot of added-on stuff. I must disagree with Eric on this in that I don't think this can be traced back to Leung Bic. I think Leung Bic's contribution was of an entirely different nature and I don't think it's especially evident in the TWC branch, but that's a topic for another thread.

BTW if you adjust the opening of the WT form to get 27 movements, and repeat it to the left and right twice for a total of four times you end up with the perfect Buddhist number of 108 movements! I actually used to practice it that way.[/QUOTE]

great minds think alike...I do the same.
 

Eric_H

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How often the number 108 pops up is a funny thing, isn't it? If memory serves right the Hindu religion/culture used it first, and it had something to do with the relationship of earth, moon and sun.

I've heard it said that the Hung Fa Yi short-bridge dummy uses it as 10-8 rather than 108 movements, similar to how 6 and 1/2 equates to 6 principals make up half the skill in pole fighting and flow makes up the whole other 50%. Can't wait to learn more of the dummy or the Lung Fu Gwan (HFY short pole) training that should be coming up shortly.
 

hunt1

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In reply to the initial question. The wing chun that I learned from Chao Ng Kwai was passed down from leung Jan student Chan Kwai better known as Lo Kwai or butcher Kwai. The pole form contains several more movements than the Yip Man pole form. When you compare the forms it is clear that Yip Man or his teacher simplified the form. Everything in Yip's form is in the Chao kwai family form but the same can not be said.

As to the naming of the form the 7 points or concepts are the same. The difference stems from the fact that 6 movements have both a Yang and a Yin side thus making 6 full movements. The 7th point only has a Yang side thus a 1/2 movement.
 
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