Chi Sau; Friend or Foe?

[zepedawingchun]

Awesome! But, if someone "pulls" me down(I usually heel kick and that works. even with the new teacher and his student. lol! he kept trying to latch me which worked, but I could always still kick them in the knee.)
or pushes forward I usually just wrist roll out of it and go forward with attack.
Love those wrist rolls... Men should do them more. lol!

But, what new teacher did was all that and then pak sau'ed my shoulder (and my rib/hip) turning my body so much I had to "run off" to regain centerline. (that sucked because I didn't know what elese to do. so contra to WC)

Maybe because it was totally new to me, or that I just didn't know how to deal with that...(never was taught how to deal with that)
But, yeah,. when your centerline is compromised, what do you do?
Your off balance, turned around, and "pushed" to where your opponent is in the side of your ear. off balance and they're pressing you. (oddly I can deal with wrestlers, or whatever, just not really excellent strikers in that manner!) ouch@! not good...

How do you regain centerline without going backwards?
So many questions, Si-Hing

Sounds to me like your hands (arms) are too rigid which allows him to latch or pull you down or off your horse. So, in essense, you are reacting instead of responding to their energy. When someone pushs or tries to latch, you should give up the energy and huen sau around their hand to a superior position, preferably on top of their hand and forcing your energy inward, towards them. Prevent them from taking you off balance, turned around, or out of position.

The pak sau on the shoulder, you should relax and sink your center to make it hard or almost impossible to turn your body. Not sure how he was able to turn you whole body with just a pak sau, unless you weren't rooted or was standing way to high. While he was trying to turn your body, you should have been straight blasting towards his face.

A lot of times, I find smaller people try to fight up to talker or bigger people. Which is a mistake. You need to make them come down to you and fight instead. Since your center of gravity is lower, it should be much harder for someone taller to lever you off your horse, so they have to come down to your level to be able to do that.

In answer to your question, what do you do when your centerline is compromised? Kiss you a*s goodbye! You should cut them off before it gets that far. If your stance is correct, and rooted, and hand positions correct, with springy and relaxed energy, you shouldn't lose your centerline. Once you've lost it, or when you lose it, that means you were reacting to their attack instead or responding to their energy. That's Too Late!

 

[BlueVino]

Do you think that Chi Sau is really effective in teaching one to "fight"? In realistic terms?

Based on some YouTube videos I've seen, it seems that some schools work Chi Sau as a game of tag; I think that's missing the point. Other people have listed out what Chi Sau teaches, and I agree: it teaches important tools, but the drill is by no means comprehensive.

In my opinion, Chi Sau is to fighting as learning how to swing a hammer is to building a house.

In the book Meditations on Violence, the author goes through what he learned about fighting when he was a prison officer, and how it varies from his martial arts training. According to his argument, Chi Sau practiced as "tag" is counter-productive to surviving a fight. Based on my experience, one needs to practice Chi Sau at a very high intensity for it to prepare them for an assault.

 

[geezer]

You don't have the term jow sau or running hand?

Thanks for the clarification. Actually we do use the term "run-around" to describe the use of huen-sau in situations like you described. As far as the term "jip" goes... I vaguely recall my first sifu who was Chinese using something like that, but that was a long time ago and I'm no expert on the Cantonese terms. Anyway, it isn't one of the main terms we use. Beyond that, I'll have to ask my instructor and get back to you.

 

[Si-Je]

He really didn't have to latch, and all he did was redirect while stepping into me with like a double palm strike. (don't know what it's called) I've learned it before, just not used to double palm strike/like the shoulder and the hip or lower rib at the same time. Works well. You can't just pivot back against that and face your centerline to him again.
Tried that. sunk in stance and just ended up forcing with force. you have to give somehow, otherwise your fighting the force/pressure.

Limited I am. lol! Just don't know how to regain from there. I can always regain my centerline on an opponent, this was the first time I couldn't. even with x-hubbie.
Man, I can't wait to train full on with this Sifu. I'll learn whatever he's got to teach me, I tell you what... yepperz.

As for Chi sau becomeing a "competition". Once that happens, it's lost. But oddly chi sau is a bit of a competition. But that's when your missing the whole concept of chi sau. Which, lol! I'm talking all wise here, but everytime I do chi sau after awhile I find myself "competing" to get in on the person. I try not to to just let it happen but it's hard.
You just are focusing on your forward pressure and intention and still not getting in, moving and flowing, still not in there, then I just end up trying to "make it Happen" . Works sometimes, but half the time I get myself in trouble.
But, then of course. The only people I've ever done chi sau with are with Sifu or Dai-SiHing level folks, so thats not fair.
You'll just never get in, so give it up and just feel the flow. Enjoy the slapp. lol!

 

[zepedawingchun]

He really didn't have to latch, and all he did was redirect while stepping into me with like a double palm strike. (don't know what it's called) I've learned it before, just not used to double palm strike/like the shoulder and the hip or lower rib at the same time. Works well. You can't just pivot back against that and face your centerline to him again.
Tried that. sunk in stance and just ended up forcing with force. you have to give somehow, otherwise your fighting the force/pressure.!

Double palm strike, 1 low, 1 high is called po pai jern. The best counter is to relax, sink, and execute a quan sau or simultaneous combination of tan sau and bong sau. And then you return a po pai jern. Your quan sau should come in behind his double palms and move him/her off their horse, unless they give up before you finish execting the quan sau. Both po pai jern and quan sau can be found in Yip Man's 5th set of the dummy form.

As for Chi sau becomeing a "competition". Once that happens, it's lost. But oddly chi sau is a bit of a competition. But that's when your missing the whole concept of chi sau. Which, lol! I'm talking all wise here, but everytime I do chi sau after awhile I find myself "competing" to get in on the person. I try not to to just let it happen but it's hard.
You just are focusing on your forward pressure and intention and still not getting in, moving and flowing, still not in there, then I just end up trying to "make it Happen" . Works sometimes, but half the time I get myself in trouble.
But, then of course. The only people I've ever done chi sau with are with Sifu or Dai-SiHing level folks, so thats not fair.
You'll just never get in, so give it up and just feel the flow. Enjoy the slapp. lol!

If you are competing then you're thinking, which is not the thing to do. No ego whatsoever. If you relax and take the energy, you'll be in a better position to redirect and return as you should. Your partner tells you what to do by what they give you.

 

[Si-Je]

Thanks, I know. I think too much. It's girl thing. lol!
But when we did his "version" of chi sau, I did relax. But, I'm unfortunately really stiff these days, because I haven't trained in like two years. Stiff enough for a WC person to take advantage of, but relaxed enough to cover the rest.

I didn't want to be a smarty pants and go to his school and be a jerk. I wanted to see what he did and taught without so much of what I've learned before. It's just polite to begin with, and you learn more of what a teacher teaches, if you let them teach.

I was impressed that he didn't hurt me at all, and just taught. (while trying to find out what I know. lol! never tell will I)
But, he always talks about how I should have a fighters "spirit" or fight to test my WC. He wants to bring out the *****. lol
That's why I take MA. I've got a beast, and I don't need to unleash it just to prove a point. I might talk mean and rough. But, that's why I hate the blitz "defense". I don't want to get that aggressive, and the "combat" aggressive schools make it such a point to fight.

****! I've been in fights my whole life. It just sucks. there is NO winner.
Just pain and trouble.
I don't want that anymore.
I fight only when I HAVE to. or think I HAVE to. (sometimes, afterwards you realize that you really didn't have to fight. lol!)

I dont' want to 'challenge" people, or make a big fuss. I just want to train. I know I'm a pain in the *** student because I ask alot of questions and like to try new and old stuff. Crap. Cross training is the effect of all that. lol! I want to see what a Sifu would do against some good kicks TKD or JKD style, or some throws (I've totally lost the nerve to even try those anymore. lol! that's why MMA guys think that WC partners are "compliant". lol! you better comply otherwise you get hit and kicked really hard. lol!)

But, anyways, this guy is all about challenging and fighting to test your WC. Which I kinda agree, but would do it more "friendly" and with gear than he does. I don't want to prove to someone elese at their school that my arts better than theirs (that's so RUDE i just can't contemplate actually DOING that.! not to mention their livlyhood.)

Lol! I just hope he doesn't hit me one day. I couldn't take it. He wants to bring out the "warrior", that's what I try to supress. Don't bring her out! She's mean and ruthless.
I don't like her. She's ugly... That's why I study MA and especially WC. So I don't need her to defend myself.

 

[Si-Je]

Thanks, I know. I think too much. It's girl thing. lol!
But when we did his "version" of chi sau, I did relax. But, I'm unfortunately really stiff these days, because I haven't trained in like two years. Stiff enough for a WC person to take advantage of, but relaxed enough to cover the rest.

I didn't want to be a smarty pants and go to his school and be a jerk. I wanted to see what he did and taught without so much of what I've learned before. It's just polite to begin with, and you learn more of what a teacher teaches, if you let them teach. (I guess I came off "mousy" by doing that. he wants to let the "beast" out.)
No beast, that's why I took MA to begin with, i've got the "beast". I don't need to learn to be more aggressive, I've got to control it. Every WC/WT teacher I've ever had or worked with always told me I should be more aggressive. lol! (what a way to confuse a bit bull, Mook Man!)
I don't want to bite.
anyways....
I was impressed that he didn't hurt me at all, and just taught. (while trying to find out what I know. lol! never tell will I) ;p

But, he always talks about how I should have a fighters "spirit" or fight to test my WC. He wants to bring out the *****. lol
That's why I take MA. I've got a beast, and I don't need to unleash it just to prove a point. I might talk mean and rough, and mean every word. But,... I hate the blitz "defense". Because it isn't a defense, it's offence, and yes... each are the cause and result of the other.
I don't want to get that aggressive, and the "combat" aggressive schools make it such a point to fight.

****! I've been in fights my whole life. For real. I mean fights you could never win. Never. But you still fight because you have too. You don't win, you might just get to live. lol!

there is NO winner in a fight.
Just pain and trouble.

I fight only when I HAVE to. or think I HAVE to. (sometimes, afterwards you realize that you really didn't have to fight. lol!)

I dont' want to 'challenge" people, or make a big fuss. I just want to train. I know I'm a pain in the *** student because I ask alot of questions and like to try new and old stuff. Crap. Cross training is the effect of all that.

I want to see what a Sifu would do against some good kicks TKD or JKD style, or some throws (I've totally lost the nerve to even try those anymore. ouch, it just hurts to much to even try that **** anymore. It's why MMA guys think that WC partners are "compliant".
Yeah, you'd learn to be compliant after hurting "yourself" trying to throw this guy.! can you imagine a MMA dude trying to take Sifu Fung to the ground?!! I'd love to see someone try to do that, which I'm sure someone did. I just wish I saw it. !

But, anyways, this guy is all about challenging and fighting to test your WC. Which I kinda agree, but would do it more "friendly" and with gear to not really hurt a potential friend, than he does. I don't want to prove to someone elese at their school that my arts better than theirs (that's so RUDE i just can't contemplate actually DOING that.! not to mention their livlyhood.)

Lol! I just hope he doesn't hit me one day. I couldn't take it. He wants to bring out the "warrior", that's what I try to supress. Don't bring her out! She's mean and ruthless.
I don't like her. She's ugly... That's why I study MA and especially WC. So I don't need her to defend me when the chips are down.

 

[geezer]

Other people have listed out what Chi Sau teaches, and I agree: it teaches important tools, but the drill is by no means comprehensive...

In my opinion, Chi Sau is to fighting as learning how to swing a hammer is to building a house.

And yet chi-sau is ever so much more complex than swinging a hammer. It's more like learning how to skillfully use all your tools. Still, learning to use tools is still a long way from having what it takes to build a house.

I think chi sau needs to be trained on all levels from very gently and fluidly to very aggressively, merging into sparring. Too much of one or the other will shortchange you. When working at the sparring end of the spectrum, you should not be playing tag. One light hit does not end a fight. IMHO when you find your opening, you should take control of your opponent and dominate him with multiple shots, maybe closing in with elbows, a sweep or throw, and if necessary follow him right down to the ground.

 

[profesormental]

Greetings.

Chi Sao is a platform to learn a lot of skills in a developmental, evolutionary way, as has been stated.

Depending on the intent, intensity, and skills taught, it can prepare or hinder the execution of skills needed to survive a fight effectively.

If you link the training to actual scenarios, most probably the skills will be there when needed. So it depends on the actual training regimen, intensity, mental states while training, etc.

 

[MattB]

idk! For me I think of chi sao as being a training tool. Its were you start to learn to apply WC positions and read/feel the energy of another and to flow from one position to another. you also learn how to trap, important to know in an inclose range.
Can you learn to fight with just Chi Sao, No. It takes everything in WC combined to do that. So you cant just discard it and I think that you also cant just use Chi Sao as a subsitute to teach real world applications either.
Granted I no expert I may be wrong.

 

[chinaboxer]

I cover this question in my video tutorial titled "Why Chi Sau is important" part 1 and 2. you can view them here..

 

[Poor Uke]

Chi sau is the soul of Wing Chun - simple

 

[Si-Je]

I love chi sau and feel it is the heart of wing chun, but I'm thinking now it's both friend and foe to the wing chun practitioner.

Friend because it teaches sensitivity, flow, and re-direction with response in a pretty spontaneous manner without all out sparring.

But foe and woe to those that depend on it like the gospel. It's a teaching aide, not excatly where combat will always begin. Yet,.. it is the heart and meat of true close quarters combat. Again, it depends on how it is drilled and practiced.

as in, where do you stop in chi sau? And I'm not talking about hitting your partner full force, I'm talking about "range". Where do you go when you get jammed or tangled up? Do you do a few movements and stop to restart the same drill? Or are you really feeling energy and intention or your partner and doing different things everytime?

I asked this question because I see many WC folks drilling set positions over and over in chi sau, stopping and starting over again to drill. Which has it's place in the early stages of learning new stuff, but you must go on from there. Plus, everyone worries about the hands so much they don't "cheat" and use the legs.
If your simulating "fighting" you'd be kicking too, sweeping, fooking the neck, all of it, not just hands.

Wing Chun is about way more than just the hands. It seems everyone forgets this. Me too, when I do chi sau. Someone "traps" my hands and I just give up like a little girl. Then, oh! yeah. I can still kick you. lol!

 

[chinaboxer]

Chi sau is the soul of Wing Chun - simple

soul of wing chun, heart of wing chun, i agree with both these statements. but it's also one of the most misunderstood.

so IMO i would say, it's definitely a "friend" when practiced correctly, and definitely a "foe" if you're not.

 

[Si-Je]

soul of wing chun, heart of wing chun, i agree with both these statements. but it's also one of the most misunderstood.

so IMO i would say, it's definitely a "friend" when practiced correctly, and definitely a "foe" if you're not.

You just stole my words. lol!
How do you know if your training it correctly? Trust your Sifu?
Trust your instinct?
Or just get hit enough?
lol!

I love chi sau, it's always big fun. And teaches me alot about close quarters fighting and defense. But, it lacks... Bridging.

 

[chinaboxer]

You just stole my words. lol!
How do you know if your training it correctly? Trust your Sifu?
Trust your instinct?
Or just get hit enough?
lol!

I love chi sau, it's always big fun. And teaches me alot about close quarters fighting and defense. But, it lacks... Bridging.

that's the million dollar question. for me personally, i always revert back to the core "concepts and principles". if someone is teaching me a movement that requires me to rely on "muscle or speed" to work, then i instantly know that instructor is not for me, i'm not saying that it's not valid for him, but it's just not what i'm looking for at this time in my life. so yeah, i think you do have to "trust your instincts" as you put it.

Jin

 

[Seeker]

I guess you have to know what bad chi sua is before you can know good?

When I first started doing CS, I kept getting paired up with this older gentleman who had been there for about a year before me. He really liked to take advantage of new people to show off his 'skills' in attacking because he had learned all the little tricks that would trip up a newbie. Oh and he wasn't shy about hitting people hard. I got fat lip once and someone else got a bloody nose from him.

One day I got fed up with him, so when ever he moved I just wedged down his center between his arms and blast a palm into his chest. He got really ticked about this because it seemed to nulify any of the tricks he had been using and I got to hit him back pretty hard without me looking like the bad guy.

To me, this was a total waste of time for both of us. Because he relied on trickery to make his attacks work and I had to use something from another art to keep from getting a fat lip, or worse.

It wasn't until later that I got to work with the more skilled students that I began improving. I'm no where near good at CS, but isn't that part of the fun. Knowing you have more to learn.

 

[Domino]

I guess you have to know what bad chi sua is before you can know good?

One day I got fed up with him, so when ever he moved I just wedged down his center between his arms and blast a palm into his chest. He got really ticked about this because it seemed to nulify any of the tricks he had been using and I got to hit him back pretty hard without me looking like the bad guy.

I agree you must know the errors to keep your chi sau correct / tight.
I enjoy working with more experienced members, who can point these areas out.
And a hit is the only way to motivate to keep your structure tight.