Certification

[SahBumNimRush]

Rather than hijacking the thread this sidebar discussion arose on, I thought I would post more about it here.. .

When you say pre-Kukkiwon curriculum I assume you mean a curriculum from some point in time of the old Taekwondo Moodukkwan. or maybe the older Tang Soo Do Moodukkwan? Do you and your students apply for certification through Soobahkdo Moodukkwan, Korea --- or Taekwondo Moodukkwan, Korea?

I know GM Ahn changed over to Kukkiwon style from Tang Soo Do back in the 70's, but he still received his 9th Dan from Taekwondo Moodukkwan, in addition to Kukkiwon.

When I say "pre-Kukkiwon curriculum" I mean, that our forms are: Kicho Hyungs 1-3, Pyung Ahn Hyungs 1-5, Bassai, Naihanchi Hyungs 1-3, Chinto, Kong Sang Kun, etc.. . Our terminology is slightly different than the KKW standard. For example Jassae is used for Stance rather than Seogi and Hyung is used rather than Poomsae. I do not know any Taeguk or KKW Yudanja forms.

GM Kang has a certificates through Taekwondo Moo Duk Kwan and Kukkiwon. I really don't know if the certificates that he issues have any direct association with any organization back in Korea, or if they are strictly "in house certificates."

All certificates are signed:

Sok Ho Kang, President
Korean Tae Kwon Do Association
Moo Duk Kwan
State of West Virginia


Here is my 5th Dan certificate:

The question arose that since my KJN is Kukkiwon certified, shouldn't I be? My response is that while my KJN is Kukkiwon certified, we do not practice KKW curriculum, so I'm not sure how me being KKW certified is relevant or important. I would welcome comments on those who may have been in a situation like this, and what they're feelings on the matter are.

 

[Twin Fist]

KKW people automatically assume everyone either is or wants to be KKW certified too.

as for your case, if you dont practice the KKW material no you should not be KKW certified.

 

[Gemini]

KKW people automatically assume everyone either is or wants to be KKW certified too.

as for your case, if you dont practice the KKW material no you should not be KKW certified.

I'm a KKW person who says this statement is a sweeping generalization and simply not true. But if you're going to have a certification from a governing body, it seems you should know and practice the curriculum that is the standard for that governing body. Isn't that the whole point of any governing body having a standard?

 

[Dirty Dog]

Our KJN also holds rank from both the Moo Duk Kwan and the Kukkiwon. We primarily use the Palgwe forms and most of our dan holders have their rank through the Moo Duk Kwan. There are at least two of us who also practice the Taegeuks (actually, we both also practice the Chang Hon forms as well) and have rank through the Kukkiwon. Does your KJN offer KKW certification to those who prefer it?

The idea that because your KJN holds Kukkiwon rank automatically means you should too assumes that KKW rank is somehow preferable to MDK. That is a false assumption. If you're happy with your training and affiliations, then you're with the right org.

Incidentially, I love the look of your cert. The KKW certs look like the awards kids get from Little League or for perfect attendance at school.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

Does your KJN offer KKW certification to those who prefer it?

Honestly, I don't know. No one, to my knowledge is KKW certified under our KJN, but I honestly don't think anyone has ever asked for it.

 

[puunui]

The question arose that since my KJN is Kukkiwon certified, shouldn't I be? My response is that while my KJN is Kukkiwon certified, we do not practice KKW curriculum, so I'm not sure how me being KKW certified is relevant or important. I would welcome comments on those who may have been in a situation like this, and what they're feelings on the matter are.

If you look at the history of taekwondo, you will see that the efforts were all focused on unification on three main areas: name of the art, certification and technical standards. And the unification efforts were handled in that order, in Korea. In the 1960's, you saw the name chosen was taesoodo. that is why the kwan jang got so upset when General Choi changed it to taekwondo -- because the name had been already selected years before and they were now working on certification and technical standards.

During the 1970's, the certification issue was handled with the building and creation of the kukkiwon. Back in the 1970's, kukkiwon certification was liberally and freely given out to everyone, irregardless of the technical standards which they followed. This is no different when we grandfather in a house or building that is not up to current building codes.

The technical unification did not take place until the late 80's or even the 90's in Korea, which is why there are so much varied standards internationally -- most early international instructors moved from korea in the 60's and 70's, before the technical unification was a reality.

Now outside of Korea, we can learn from and utilize the developmental model utilized by the pioneers to achieve the same thing, in the same order. We already agree on the name taekwondo. that step has been settled.

It is my opinion that access to kukkiwon certification is a RIGHT of all taekwondoin -- everyone is entitled to it, no matter what their political affiliation or the technical guidelines that they follow. This is the viewpoint of the pioneers and that is what they sacrificed their kwan for.

We operated under this policy here in hawaii back in the early 90s when our state association was being revived. Back then, the only person who was issuing kukkiwon certification was me, the reason being that the seniors had retired and the juniors did not have kukkiwon certification and they could not give out what they themselves did not have. Many came from itf backgrounds and did not practice the kukkiwon poomsae. But they were sincere and wanted kukkiwon certification. Some, but not all, wanted to also learn the kukkiwon curriculum. Many were jeolous and resentful when they saw my certificates hanging on the wall with numbers on them that they could not even imagine obtaining even if they studied their whole lives.

I could have been a jerk about it and made them test using the kukkiwon curriculum as the basis of their promotion. Or kept kukkiwon certification to myself and not promoted anyone. But, I did not do that. Instead, I liberally gave everyone the opportunity to obtain kukkiwon certification, without restriction. I focused on the instructors and got them itf assimilation dan, started some at Kukkiwon 1st Dan, and so forth. My argument was if I could obtain such certification, being nothing particularly special or outstanding, then they should believe that they could too.

Today, the overwhelming majority of instructors give out kukkiwon certification to their students, and teach the kukkiwon curriculum, to varying degrees of compliance to the standards. Some also give their own dojang certificate, but first and foremost we give out primarily kukkiwon certification.

And everyone is happy because they now feel a part of a global phenomenon, an accepted and respected member in the kukki taekwondo family.

 

[puunui]

GM Kang has a certificates through Taekwondo Moo Duk Kwan and Kukkiwon. I really don't know if the certificates that he issues have any direct association with any organization back in Korea, or if they are strictly "in house certificates."

Those are strictly in house certificates. It has always been my policy, as well as the policy of my taekwondo teachers, that you give the certification that you yourself receive.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

KKW people automatically assume everyone either is or wants to be KKW certified too.

as for your case, if you dont practice the KKW material no you should not be KKW certified.

To be fair, this only applies to a percentage. My instructor and several KKW certified masters that I know do not advocate joining the KKW. Some do, some don't. It is a personal choice. I agree that if one desires to join the KKW, they should know the material. If they don't and/or what they are doing now fulfills their needs, there is no need to join the KKW or any other organization.

 

[puunui]

But if you're going to have a certification from a governing body, it seems you should know and practice the curriculum that is the standard for that governing body. Isn't that the whole point of any governing body having a standard?

I am not against standardization. However, when you really think about it, everyone is in a state of non-compliance. I don't care who you are. Some more than others, others less so. Those who are in a higher state of compliance are obligated to help and assist those who are less traveled down the road, not simply sit in judgment and criticize. Taekwondo is unique in the sense that it was an art created not by a single person, but rather was a group effort, all putting aside their differences to help each other prosper and grow. That to me is the true spirit of taekwondo, and that is the philosophy from which I operate from.

 

[dortiz]

"Those are strictly in house certificates. It has always been my policy, as well as the policy of my taekwondo teachers, that you give the certification that you yourself receive. "

Wow! Absoultely the best way to say how it should be.

 

[Twin Fist]

i have been told literally told that my school cert? means nothing because it isnt KKW

I have been told that i am robbing my students of the "benefits" of kkw certification

so yeah, there are people that think exactly like i said

 

[puunui]

The idea that because your KJN holds Kukkiwon rank automatically means you should too assumes that KKW rank is somehow preferable to MDK. That is a false assumption.

That is not my assumption at all. If you wish to receive moo duk kwan certification then by all means go get that. But first and foremost, all taekwondoin are entitled to kukkiwon certification, in addition to whatever other certification your instructor is giving out. I myself still receive Chung Do Kwan certification, but that is more of an afterthought. The main certification is the kukkiwon certification.

 

[puunui]

i have been told literally told that my school cert? means nothing because it isnt KKW

I have been told that i am robbing my students of the "benefits" of kkw certification

so yeah, there are people that think exactly like i said

In my opinion, you should be proud of the certificates given to you by your teacher. Nothing wrong with that. I disagree that your certificates mean "nothing". Obviously, they mean something to you, so already the "nothing" statement is incorrect. But I also believe that there is no conflict with also obtaining kukkiwon certification for yourself and for your students. Perhaps you may not be interested in competition, but maybe one of your students is, and they should have the option and freedom to pursue that, if they so choose. I have different interests and focuses than my father, but my father never discourages me and certainly would not hamper my ability to pursue something if I wanted to. I am sure you do the same for your own children.

 

[Twin Fist]

i dont do the kkw forms, so i cant be kkw certified even if i wanted to which i do not since i place NO value on it at all.

 

[puunui]

i dont do the kkw forms, so i cant be kkw certified even if i wanted to which i do not since i place NO value on it at all.

Yes you can obtain kukkiwon certification, even if you do not do the kukkiwon poomsae. Please read my earlier posts above. But if you do not want kukkiwon certification, no problem. No one is forcing you and no one will force you. That is not what taekwondo or the martial arts is about.

 

[puunui]

"Those are strictly in house certificates. It has always been my policy, as well as the policy of my taekwondo teachers, that you give the certification that you yourself receive. "

Wow! Absoultely the best way to say how it should be.

And when I promote someone to Kukkiwon dan, I have them agree that they in turn will issue Kukkiwon certification to their students. If they are not going to give it out, then there really is no need for them to get it themselves.

 

[puunui]

Incidentially, I love the look of your cert. The KKW certs look like the awards kids get from Little League or for perfect attendance at school.

There will be changes at the Kukkiwon, like at USAT and WTF occurring over the next eighteen months or so, and changing the Kukkiwon certificate design just might be one of those changes.

 

[Twin Fist]

food for thought

 

[SahBumNimRush]

Puunui,

Thank you for your input, it has been enlightening. Particularly, putting the timeline of TKD into perspective. So many of the seniors in the U.S. came to this country in the 60's and 70's, prior to KKW's existence and prior to the "technical unification." I can see how the goal of spreading TKD globally also created a very real challenge of technical unification.

I remember hearing comments about how all of the "good TKD instructors" had left Korea to teach globally; putting TKD's best foot forward so to speak in the early days.

I could see how this could create some turmoil if those "less technically skilled" were taking political TKD positions in Korea while those with more talent were spread throughout the world globalizing TKD. (this is only conjecture, I really don't know this to be the case)

 

[Dirty Dog]

The idea that because your KJN holds Kukkiwon rank automatically means you should too assumes that KKW rank is somehow preferable to MDK. That is a false assumption. If you're happy with your training and affiliations, then you're with the right org.

That is not my assumption at all.

I never said it was. Never the less, the assumption certainly exists on the part of many.

If you wish to receive moo duk kwan certification then by all means go get that. But first and foremost, all taekwondoin are entitled to kukkiwon certification, in addition to whatever other certification your instructor is giving out. I myself still receive Chung Do Kwan certification, but that is more of an afterthought. The main certification is the kukkiwon certification.

If your attitude is that everybody SHOULD get KKW certification, then you prove my statement true. If your attitude is that people SHOULD BE ABLE to get KKW certification IF THEY WANT IT then my statement doesn't apply to you. Either way, we don't disagree.

Just as an aside, I checked and we do have a few other KKW certified BB's. A couple of them are learning the Taegeuks now, since they are away at school and that is what is practiced at their university-based clubs, but did not learn them prior to their KKW certification. They learned the Palgwe forms as taught by our KJN, plus Koryo for their 1st Dan. We do use the KKW Yudanja forms, although we're "out of compliance" in the sense that Koryo is required for 1st dan candidates, rather than 2nd.