But you're not a black belt.

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ks - learning to fly

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2 of the many things I've learned in TKD so far are that...1) Black Belt is the beginning of serious study and 2) when you stop learning - you stop growing as a martial artist

I train and I watch - the learning never ends....and yes, I am a Black Belt...
 

Cyriacus

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The fun part is, i can speak in favor of having your hands down by your sides in general. Its more interesting when some people have no way of defending it whatsoever, and resort to trying to make the other person look bad.
 

harlan

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I can't 'like' this post enough, and sadly, can't yet add more to your rep.

Solid 'A'.

Oddly enough, I had something somewhat similar just happen to me recently. I was invited to a forum for a particular type of discussion about martial arts. A lot of what was said there wasn't of much interest to me, but I was flattered to have been invited, so I stayed, read the posts, didn't do much else. A couple of times, I made a comment, but was generally ignored when I did. OK, fine, whatever.

Recently, however, someone made a statement and I asked a question about it. One fellow answered me in quasi-Kwai Chang Caine verse, which made no sense. Still being polite, I asked the question a second time, and was again answered with self-written poety which again had no logic to it and nothing to do with the question I asked. Then I was informed that juniors, by which I presume means me, should know better than to speak when elders are talking, or words to that effect.

I have to admit, that stung a bit. The person who issued that statement was someone I considered a friend, one who had taken the time to invite me to his forum. Oh, I see. I am to remain silent, am I? Well, I *am* a junior, in karate. I'm not a black belt. But I am over 50 years old, I am not a child, and I won't be spoken to as if I were. I've been in the military and law enforcement, so I've had my share of fights and had to deal with lots of physical violence in my life. Yet, because I lack a black belt, I am not qualified to speak when my superiors are speaking. Oh, I see.

However, the cure was fairly simple. Rather than engage in dialogue with people who clearly did not see me as their equal, I simply left. No cutting remarks as I went, no good-byes, I just removed myself from the group and that's that. It's a shame, but it was the only choice I felt was appropriate.

At some point in the future, hopefully, I will have earned my black belt. I don't think a mantle of greatness will descend upon my shoulders, nor do I think that my words will suddenly carry more weight, or my pronouncement possess more gravitas. I will still be the person I was before I put on the kuro obi. But apparently, there are some who will be prepared to consider my words when I wear it, and not before. What a pity; for them.

As for the OP, I love the response Taika Oyata gave someone once:

'I no need belt to beat you up.' (or something to that effect LOL!)
 

Monkey Turned Wolf

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Olympic Taekwondo is a sport. The face is open to punches because it's illegal to throw a punch to the face. The other guy isn't just focusing on kicks. He's prohibited from throwing punches to the face. It's the same reason why baseball, soccer, and basketball players don't hold their hands up to prevent punches to the face. In the context of a WTF match, having the hands down is not a problem.

Having said that, I'm absolutely not advocating the putting down of other systems, and it sounds like the guy was being a jerk, so I hope I didn't come across like I was defending him.
Ok, it sounds like you completely misunderstood what I was saying. I was not saying that it is a bad sport. I was comparing it to other MA's, and if you do that, you have to find some equal footing which is NOT the context of a WTF match. And outside of that context, the lack of handwork is a pretty big handicap. So, as I was saying, in terms of comparing to other martial arts, it is a problem that they don't use their hands, and does make it an 'incomplete' MA, as all MA's are.
 

rickster

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I am at odds whenever somone has to use the "title" bouncer.

Being a bouncer does not equate to superior fighting or defense ability
 

Jaeimseu

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And to be fair, it IS a problem with TKD that they don't use their hands. Not saying they aren't formidable, but there are plenty of TKD matches where the guys leaving himself open to a punch to the face. The punch never comes, because the other guy is planning on kicking, not punching, which just reinforces the idea of not paying attention to the hands. It's sad, but true (for the most part).
What you wrote above says that in TKD matches players leave their faces open. When you say "in TKD matches" it sounds like you are talking about two Taekwondo players in a match against each other. Therefore they don't need to defend the face from a punch at that time due to the illegality of the technique.
 

ETinCYQX

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Point number one: Taekwondo guy was a dick. There are lots of those out there.

Point number two:

One of my training buddies made the point that the problem with WTF/Olympic style TKD was that the fighters dropped their hands.

That isn't a point. Where your hands are does not matter because in martial arts, you are learning to deal with pressure, not specifically with punches or kicks.
 

arnisador

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As for the OP, I love the response Taika Oyata gave someone once:

'I no need belt to beat you up.' (or something to that effect LOL!)

One of the Gracies (I think) said "A black belt only covers 2 inches of your ***. It's up to you to cover the rest."
 

arnisador

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I am at odds whenever somone has to use the "title" bouncer.

Being a bouncer does not equate to superior fighting or defense ability

I agree--but they likely have some experience spotting and heading off trouble, and that kind of practical self-defense info. can be more valuable than a specific technique. I always listen to them about how they can tell when trouble is brewing before anyone throws down, and how they manage a crowd to get things back under control. Same with cops. He may not throw a better punch than I do but he's wrestled more people to the ground than I have. I want to hear.
 

arnisador

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That isn't a point. Where your hands are does not matter because in martial arts, you are learning to deal with pressure, not specifically with punches or kicks.

Uh-oh.

You'll fight how you train--or fold and fall back on wild flaying and grappling. You need to learn to keep your hands up and watch for punches, which are so much more common than kicks in a real fight.
 

Cyriacus

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Uh-oh.

You'll fight how you train--or fold and fall back on wild flaying and grappling. You need to learn to keep your hands up and watch for punches, which are so much more common than kicks in a real fight.
What about the MMA fighters and Boxers who have their hands down? Im not talking beginners, either.
 

ETinCYQX

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Uh-oh.

You'll fight how you train--or fold and fall back on wild flaying and grappling. You need to learn to keep your hands up and watch for punches, which are so much more common than kicks in a real fight.

No, you watch for pressure, not for punches or kicks.

I spend so much time trying to get people to relax and react rather than think...yammering about hands up is counterproductive. If you really think a tkd competitor can't deal with being punched at, I don't know what to say :)
 

ETinCYQX

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What about the MMA fighters and Boxers who have their hands down? Im not talking beginners, either.

^^^

Head movement, reading opponents, watching for pressure. Textbook high level striking.
 

Buka

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"When you argue with a fool, others can't tell you apart."

and/or...

"Never argue with fools, they will drag you down to their level......then beat you with experience."
 
OP
K

Kittan Bachika

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As I said before. I am not bagging on WTF TKD. I sparred with a WTF guy who had these really crazy kicks. Because he knew I was going to throw punches at him, he was always ready with a counter. And it was always with a kick. He really made me respect kicking. So please. Let's be civil. And if those of you who are WTF TKD. It was never my intention to offend any of you. In my opinion, if this guy was a BJJ black belt or a black sash in Wing Chun, he would have acted the same way. At the end of the day it all comes down to the person.

Now that I think about it, I have also heard about this happening in styles where there are no belts. There are some people who think after spending a year in China in Shaolin Temple that they are Jet Li. And I have heard of one guy who claims to be a Zen Monk after a year of going to a temple. They all think that they know better than others.

Oddly enough, I had something somewhat similar just happen to me recently. I was invited to a forum for a particular type of discussion about martial arts. A lot of what was said there wasn't of much interest to me, but I was flattered to have been invited, so I stayed, read the posts, didn't do much else. A couple of times, I made a comment, but was generally ignored when I did. OK, fine, whatever.

Recently, however, someone made a statement and I asked a question about it. One fellow answered me in quasi-Kwai Chang Caine verse, which made no sense. Still being polite, I asked the question a second time, and was again answered with self-written poety which again had no logic to it and nothing to do with the question I asked. Then I was informed that juniors, by which I presume means me, should know better than to speak when elders are talking, or words to that effect.

I have to admit, that stung a bit. The person who issued that statement was someone I considered a friend, one who had taken the time to invite me to his forum. Oh, I see. I am to remain silent, am I? Well, I *am* a junior, in karate. I'm not a black belt. But I am over 50 years old, I am not a child, and I won't be spoken to as if I were. I've been in the military and law enforcement, so I've had my share of fights and had to deal with lots of physical violence in my life. Yet, because I lack a black belt, I am not qualified to speak when my superiors are speaking. Oh, I see.

However, the cure was fairly simple. Rather than engage in dialogue with people who clearly did not see me as their equal, I simply left. No cutting remarks as I went, no good-byes, I just removed myself from the group and that's that. It's a shame, but it was the only choice I felt was appropriate.

At some point in the future, hopefully, I will have earned my black belt. I don't think a mantle of greatness will descend upon my shoulders, nor do I think that my words will suddenly carry more weight, or my pronouncement possess more gravitas. I will still be the person I was before I put on the kuro obi. But apparently, there are some who will be prepared to consider my words when I wear it, and not before. What a pity; for them.

Bill. You are better off without that friend. He probably wanted to show off to the others about inviting you to the forum. And you showed more class than anyone else by being polite, asking questions and when things got hot, instead of losing your temper, you simple walked away. If that is not a true martial artist, I don't know what is.
 
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Monkey Turned Wolf

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What you wrote above says that in TKD matches players leave their faces open. When you say "in TKD matches" it sounds like you are talking about two Taekwondo players in a match against each other. Therefore they don't need to defend the face from a punch at that time due to the illegality of the technique.
Yes, they do. But, as I explained in the other post, because they leave their faces open in their matches, so, outside of those matches, when facing people of other disciplines, it develops into a problem. Not sure why I'm specifying this twice, since I already did in my most recent post. I have respect for TKD, but IMO, it is a problem outside of the matches. Not a big one, but it is one.

And to ETIN, if you don't practice against defending against something, you'll have a tougher time defending against it. Not just with TKD and punches, but if you're not used to, say, knives, you'll have trouble defending against them. No matter how well they relax, they will still generally be in trouble.
 

Monkey Turned Wolf

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What about the MMA fighters and Boxers who have their hands down? Im not talking beginners, either.
These people have other ways of dealing with punches. It may not be with a high guard, but they do know how to deal with punches.
 

Aiki Lee

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I try to listen to everybody's thoughts on things regardless of what their experience or rank is. Everyone can teach me something, and I may hear someone say something I hadn't thought of before. If someone is flat out wrong about something you need to have a better argument against it than "But you're not a black belt".
 

Gentle Fist

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Your friend with the black belt needs to spar a BJJ white belt so he can be humbled...
 
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