Bunkai genuine?

[Tez3]

Chris, I really don't have the time nor ever have really to delve into martial arts history, when I worked I worked shifts, brought up two kids, am a martial arts instructor, reffing, promoting and judging MMA, Jewish community security advisor Guide leader, mental health volunteer as well as running a home, things are no better now I'm retired as my husband is recovering from a heart attack and I have more to do in the house and garden, it's simply not an option.

On the subject of 'lineage', in the UK we know who our instructors are obviously and who theirs are/were and probably before that but we aren't into worrying about much further back. I remember a while back on MT Exile saying it was very common in the US to go into detail about lineage for the same reason people want to know their own history...because it is still a young country and they want a history!

On the subject of secret techniques etc, I wasn't saying they don't exist I was saying many find the idea amusing in this day and age. Many people are like myself, busy enough to met ourselves coming back, so whether a martial arts comes from China or India is of far less relevance to us than whether the techniques we've trained hard to use work when we need them to. We don't have the luxury of wondering about the history however important it may be. Perhaps in years to come I may have the luxury of sitting in the old people's home looking up the history of martial arts

 

[Tez3]

Hmm… I'd caution to be careful of making a reducto ad absurdum argument in your head there… there are genuinely "secret" techniques/methods/teachings held back… maybe not so much in modern arts, but they're certainly there in older arts… and for very good reasons, which are eminently pragmatic. Just from a different perspective.

I was thinking more about this and I think you are reading into it far more than I wrote. For one thing there's no argument at all, it's just a comment. We often look back at things people used to do in the past and find it amusing they used to do what they did. I'm watching a cycling race, the riders are followed by their teams cars with spare wheels, bike and with food and drink for them, a long while ago the riders used to carry the spare tyres around their bodies with their pockets full of food and drink or they stopped at cafes. That, to modern eyes is amusing. That people used to have secret techniques and things 'never to be told' is amusing now to those of us who try to be as open and as 'sharing' as possible, there's no argument there at all, just a lot back at how things were with an amused smile just as we do with many things.

 

[Teresa Wyatt]

The thing about any oral history out of China, it can change depending on who you talk to. And yet another thing about Chinese history is that any study of it needs to be done with an understanding of Chinese characters and at times traditional characters.

Not saying anything you are posting is right or wrong, but if it is out of China, it may or may bot be true. I can list all sorts of reputable sources who talk about the founder of Taijiquan being Zhang Sanfeng. However look into it a bit further and you see they list him all over the place in the Chinese timeline. And even with those "rebutabel sources" most Chinese scholars today do not believe Zhang Sanfeng had much or anything to do with the creation of taijiquan..if he ever really existed at all

I need your HELP Sir, I am testing for 3rd Dan TKD after way too long! I asked my GM why do some learn forms easily and others like me struggle. I believe it is a great MATH brain. Geometry. I am searching for information for my thesis. Help me if wish. please.

 

[Teresa Wyatt]

I was thinking more about this and I think you are reading into it far more than I wrote. For one thing there's no argument at all, it's just a comment. We often look back at things people used to do in the past and find it amusing they used to do what they did. I'm watching a cycling race, the riders are followed by their teams cars with spare wheels, bike and with food and drink for them, a long while ago the riders used to carry the spare tyres around their bodies with their pockets full of food and drink or they stopped at cafes. That, to modern eyes is amusing. That people used to have secret techniques and things 'never to be told' is amusing now to those of us who try to be as open and as 'sharing' as possible, there's no argument there at all, just a lot back at how things were with an amused smile just as we do with many things.

Asking with respect. I need help. I am writing a thesis for my 3rd Dan. Why do some learn forms. Kata Poomse with ease and other struggle. I believe it is a math brain. Trying to learn.

 

[Tez3]

Asking with respect. I need help. I am writing a thesis for my 3rd Dan. Why do some learn forms. Kata Poomse with ease and other struggle. I believe it is a math brain. Trying to learn.

I would say not a maths brain as I'm really useless at maths, really bad I can't remember numbers let alone do maths. learning kata becomes easier the more you do, learning your first one you have techniques and movements to learn as well as the 'order' in which they are done. Afterwards, you know the techniques and just have to learn the order, often kata/forms follow a pattern.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I need your HELP Sir, I am testing for 3rd Dan TKD after way too long! I asked my GM why do some learn forms easily and others like me struggle. I believe it is a great MATH brain. Geometry. I am searching for information for my thesis. Help me if wish. please.

I doubt I could be of much help but I do not think it is math, actually it could be detrimental IMHO

 

[elder999]

Asking with respect. I need help. I am writing a thesis for my 3rd Dan. Why do some learn forms. Kata Poomse with ease and other struggle. I believe it is a math brain. Trying to learn.

They likely have better imaginations, and are "seeing" opponents-you should ask them.

 

[elder999]

On the subject of secret techniques etc, I wasn't saying they don't exist I was saying many find the idea amusing in this day and age. Many people are like myself, busy enough to met ourselves coming back, so whether a martial arts comes from China or India is of far less relevance to us than whether the techniques we've trained hard to use work when we need them to. We don't have the luxury of wondering about the history however important it may be. Perhaps in years to come I may have the luxury of sitting in the old people's home looking up the history of martial arts

It's been my experience that such secrets are often hidden in plain sight, waiting to be absorption brings them to the surface for the practitioner...one of judo's secrets, for example, is exemplified in something the founder said about its merciful nature.

 

[Teresa Wyatt]

I would say not a maths brain as I'm really useless at maths, really bad I can't remember numbers let alone do maths. learning kata becomes easier the more you do, learning your first one you have techniques and movements to learn as well as the 'order' in which they are done. Afterwards, you know the techniques and just have to learn the order, often kata/forms follow a pattern.

But, was it difficult for you as a lower belt? I am the one who found it difficult. I am 23 years into this. I instruct and see myself in my students and I see the ones that POOF get the form. So MY question to you is...was it difficult? IE were you the slower one at first to learn? As patterns are geometry and also you must be able to visualize it. Sure repetition is key but I have a kid who after 4 lessons knew 2 forms well enough that I was I shock. I simply asked ARE YOU GOOD AT MATH?

 

[Tez3]

But, was it difficult for you as a lower belt? I am the one who found it difficult. I am 23 years into this. I instruct and see myself in my students and I see the ones that POOF get the form. So MY question to you is...was it difficult? IE were you the slower one at first to learn? As patterns are geometry and also you must be able to visualize it. Sure repetition is key but I have a kid who after 4 lessons knew 2 forms well enough that I was I shock. I simply asked ARE YOU GOOD AT MATH?

You will always have people who are really good at things and others who are slower, it's human nature. I wouldn't say patterns are geometry though but then I don't know what ones you do, my katas are from Wado Ryu and were actually fairly easy to learn, I had good instructors and we'd learn them bit by bit, learn the bunkai and repeat often. Are you learning the bunkai as well or do you just go through the motions of the patterns.

 

[Teresa Wyatt]

You will always have people who are really good at things and others who are slower, it's human nature. I wouldn't say patterns are geometry though but then I don't know what ones you do, my katas are from Wado Ryu and were actually fairly easy to learn, I had good instructors and we'd learn them bit by bit, learn the bunkai and repeat often. Are you learning the bunkai as well or do you just go through the motions of the patterns.

Well, Sir, I am TKD. It is all more the same than not. I do not believe it is so simple as human nature. I am trying to help others teach. Nothing you say is helpful. It is yellow belt stuff. I am into my 24th year. This is a thesis. Please if you or anyone has research papers. I know it is easier for some. I am simply trying to research the why. With respect, what you say is not helpful. I am great at my forms but I work hard where others just float in and do it. This is a graduate paper on teaching forms, Sir.

 

[Tez3]

Well, Sir, I am TKD. It is all more the same than not. I do not believe it is so simple as human nature. I am trying to help others teach. Nothing you say is helpful. It is yellow belt stuff. I am into my 24th year. This is a thesis. Please if you or anyone has research papers. I know it is easier for some. I am simply trying to research the why. With respect, what you say is not helpful. I am great at my forms but I work hard where others just float in and do it. This is a graduate paper on teaching forms, Sir.

Well firstly I'm not a sir, you could try ma'am but I would prefer you not to, secondly I think you need to tone down your responses. I've been in martial arts longer than you have and if what I say isn't helpful then I'm sorry but it's my experience, I can't give you more than that. You have it in your mind it's to do with maths, I've pointed out that I'm useless at maths, I do have a degree but it's in something else. I don't have research papers and to be honest I'm not sure it would help because the work is supposed to be yours not someone else's.
I work hard at some things other things I find quite easy, everyone has subjects like that, why I don't know but it is so.
I think you need to take a deep breaths and start looking for a different way of looking at the subject. You need to look at academic studies of how people learn, the psychology of learning, I don't think you will find the answers on here to be honest. what you seem to be looking for is beyond martial arts. It seems a very complicated subject...that of how people learn...for a Dan grade.
I would suggest starting a new thread asking for opinions as this thread is about something else and you probably won't get the answers you want on here but I'm hoping it's not, as we have had before, that you want someone else's work to use.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Well, Sir, I am TKD. It is all more the same than not. I do not believe it is so simple as human nature. I am trying to help others teach. Nothing you say is helpful. It is yellow belt stuff. I am into my 24th year. This is a thesis. Please if you or anyone has research papers. I know it is easier for some. I am simply trying to research the why. With respect, what you say is not helpful. I am great at my forms but I work hard where others just float in and do it. This is a graduate paper on teaching forms, Sir.

A large part of it is s matter of interest.
When I first studied Tae Kwon Do, in 1969, I didn't really care about forms. I liked sparring. And breaking. I learned forms only as required for promotion, and didn't work at them much outside of class. As a result, I learned slowly. Now, a few years later (ok, more than a few), I enjoy forms and put a lot more effort into them. As a result, I learn them quickly.


Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Not TapaTalk. Really.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Well, Sir, I am TKD. It is all more the same than not. I do not believe it is so simple as human nature. I am trying to help others teach. Nothing you say is helpful. It is yellow belt stuff. I am into my 24th year. This is a thesis. Please if you or anyone has research papers. I know it is easier for some. I am simply trying to research the why. With respect, what you say is not helpful. I am great at my forms but I work hard where others just float in and do it. This is a graduate paper on teaching forms, Sir.

24th year...wow.....impressive...that would be.....let me see...using a little math..... 18 years ago for me....there be old people here with a lot of experience...you should probably be made aware of that.

Based on your responses you seem to already feel you already know why and are not looking so much for assistance as you are looking for support for your hypothesis.

Oh and for the record...I am a sir

 

[Dirty Dog]

Well, Sir, I am TKD. It is all more the same than not. I do not believe it is so simple as human nature. I am trying to help others teach. Nothing you say is helpful. It is yellow belt stuff. I am into my 24th year. This is a thesis. Please if you or anyone has research papers. I know it is easier for some. I am simply trying to research the why. With respect, what you say is not helpful. I am great at my forms but I work hard where others just float in and do it. This is a graduate paper on teaching forms, Sir.

A question... how is it that you have determined that these people "just float in and do it?" Have you accurately determined their level of training and experience, including training in other systems? Have you accurately measured how much time they spend practicing outside formal classes? Have you accurately determined how much effort they put into their training in and out of formal classes (and if so, I'd like to know how...)?

You say you're "great" at forms (got video?), but credit this to hard work, while assuming others are not working equally hard. Or harder.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I need your HELP Sir, I am testing for 3rd Dan TKD after way too long! I asked my GM why do some learn forms easily and others like me struggle. I believe it is a great MATH brain. Geometry. I am searching for information for my thesis. Help me if wish. please.

Well, Sir, I am TKD. It is all more the same than not. I do not believe it is so simple as human nature. I am trying to help others teach. Nothing you say is helpful. It is yellow belt stuff. I am into my 24th year. This is a thesis. Please if you or anyone has research papers. I know it is easier for some. I am simply trying to research the why. With respect, what you say is not helpful. I am great at my forms but I work hard where others just float in and do it. This is a graduate paper on teaching forms, Sir.

Hi Teresa! Welcome to MartialTalk. I'd suggest you make a post in the Meet and Greet section to introduce yourself and then make another post asking your question about learning forms in the General Martial Arts section so that as many people see it as possible.

Personally, I doubt that anyone has published any academic research on a correlation between natural ability in math and the ability to quickly learn forms. It's possible that such a correlation exists, but I'm skeptical. Even if there is such a correlation, it's quite possibly due to both attributes being correlated with some other factor such as general memory which could aid in both domains.

If I had to guess, I'd suspect that the biggest difference between those who pick up forms quickly vs those who don't would be the quality and quantity of practice outside of class.

BTW - am I correct in interpreting your question to be asking about why some folks memorize the steps in a form easier than others? It seems to me that whether such memorization is easy or hard for an individual, the time required to memorize the steps is still trivial compared to the time it takes to get really good at the form.

 

[Teresa Wyatt]

PILSUNG

 

[Tez3]

Well, first of all Madame, I am sorry for calling you Sir. No matter it is not kind to suggest I would steal anyone's work. I was asked to do this topic. I already have manwa books for children but it is a secondary. I wondered WHY? But, yes, I will look at HOW people learn as apparently no one has applied this to martial arts or if so I cannot find a source. I need to find the answer. I have a college degree. It is plagiarism to steal and certainly no true person takes another as their own. OH I am not trying to prove how a Dan grade learns but to assist those who teach and simply to understand the WHY of ease. I will look at learning patterns say for Dance and Music and see if I can apply it. I certainly did not mean to offend. I truly am amazed that GM's do not have an answer regarding this so if not? It is interesting to me. PILSUNG

What GM's? I don't think we have any here and the truth is we don't understand really what is it you want. I'm thinking that English is not your first language?
I don't know what 'manwa' books are.
If you follow the suggestion of posting a new thread with what you want I think you would get more answers, as I said it's hard to tell what it is you want to know.

 

[Teresa Wyatt]

PILSUNG

 

[Teresa Wyatt]

PILSUNG